The flight training manual gives some indications of an approaching stall such as: decay of control effectiveness, buffet. Do you always look for the nose drop to indicate the full stalled condition?
How about a full power stall? Would the buffet be considered a stall and recovery initiated after the buffet?
Stalls
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Most flight test examiners are going to want to see the aircraft proceed through the buffet and into the full stall - and of course the primary indication that this has occurred in a properly loaded aircraft (light single) will be the nose drop.
In a power on stall, the usual goal of the exercise is to get the student to the point where, without corrective action, the aircraft will enter an incipient spin. This again means taking the aircraft past the buffet and into the fully stalled condition.
Now - when I taught stalls, I liked to do them in a progression (at least for the initial lesson). Teach the student to recognize each symptom of the approaching stall and execute a recovery at the appropriate time. For example - in the power-off stall, get them to execute the recovery at the first indication of the stall warning horn. The next time, take them to the buffet. Next, get them to fully stall the aircraft and recover without the application of power - just by getting the angle of attack lowered and unstalling the aircraft. Finally, add power to the equation and get them to recover with a minimum loss of altitude. By doing this I have found several things: First, students seem to be much more aware of the symptoms of an impending stall, and reallize that they will get some signals from the aircraft before she stalls out. This is the "big hope" for me as an instructor - that the student will save their ass before the aircraft actually gets into a stall. Secondly, I've found that by the time you're doing the full recovery, the student has already practiced the motions several times and frustration is less probable - they usually nail it the first or second time. Finally, for students that are nervous about stalling the aircraft, it gives them a way to get their feet wet before jumping right into the full stall.
You probably don't need to take a similar approach when dealing with power-on stalls or climbing-turning stalls as the student will probably be ready to take these on. Again, if you've got a nervous student (I had one who cried the first time we did an incipient!), start with low power settings and work your way up to the ones required to get a good wing drop.
So the bottom line: stall her out. Even with the multi rating, the examiner is going to want the student to take it past the buffet (at least all the examiners I've dealt with) and into the full stall with the drop. And remember - the nose drop can be a subtle thing...and doesn't necessarily mean that the nose is headed straight for the ground.
Hope this helps.
Pugster
In a power on stall, the usual goal of the exercise is to get the student to the point where, without corrective action, the aircraft will enter an incipient spin. This again means taking the aircraft past the buffet and into the fully stalled condition.
Now - when I taught stalls, I liked to do them in a progression (at least for the initial lesson). Teach the student to recognize each symptom of the approaching stall and execute a recovery at the appropriate time. For example - in the power-off stall, get them to execute the recovery at the first indication of the stall warning horn. The next time, take them to the buffet. Next, get them to fully stall the aircraft and recover without the application of power - just by getting the angle of attack lowered and unstalling the aircraft. Finally, add power to the equation and get them to recover with a minimum loss of altitude. By doing this I have found several things: First, students seem to be much more aware of the symptoms of an impending stall, and reallize that they will get some signals from the aircraft before she stalls out. This is the "big hope" for me as an instructor - that the student will save their ass before the aircraft actually gets into a stall. Secondly, I've found that by the time you're doing the full recovery, the student has already practiced the motions several times and frustration is less probable - they usually nail it the first or second time. Finally, for students that are nervous about stalling the aircraft, it gives them a way to get their feet wet before jumping right into the full stall.
You probably don't need to take a similar approach when dealing with power-on stalls or climbing-turning stalls as the student will probably be ready to take these on. Again, if you've got a nervous student (I had one who cried the first time we did an incipient!), start with low power settings and work your way up to the ones required to get a good wing drop.
So the bottom line: stall her out. Even with the multi rating, the examiner is going to want the student to take it past the buffet (at least all the examiners I've dealt with) and into the full stall with the drop. And remember - the nose drop can be a subtle thing...and doesn't necessarily mean that the nose is headed straight for the ground.
Hope this helps.
Pugster
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Right Seat Captain
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Re: Stalls
I think Pugster pretty much sums it up, bit I wanted to add a little bit regarding one of your questions.Asus wrote:The flight training manual gives some indications of an approaching stall such as: decay of control effectiveness, buffet. Do you always look for the nose drop to indicate the full stalled condition?
How about a full power stall? Would the buffet be considered a stall and recovery initiated after the buffet?
Especially with a power-on stall with about 1200 or 1300 RPM, one will not always get a nose drop. In a Cessna, if you enter the stall very gently, and hold the controls full back, the plane sort of hovers nose up. The little bit of power causes enough air to pass over the elevators to keep the nose up, but not enough adverse yaw to stall one wing more than the other (incpipient spin). You can feel the buffetting, and the stall horn goes off, and you're loosing altitude. The altitude loss itself is the indication that you have stalled. Once you release the back pressure, the nose will drop.
The one symptom that is universal to all stalls is the inability to hold altitude with full back pressure. When this occurs the a/c is stalled. This is in fact the type of stall that most often kills people. This occurs when someone is on final, and lets the speed bleed back. They end up running out of back pressure and stalling the thing. They don't recognize it for a stall, because the nose has not dropped, and hence do not initiate recovery. The end result is that they mush into the ground very hard, and sometimes short of the runway.
On the flight test you can recognize that you are stalled when you have full back pressure and the altitude is still decreasing. I find this most often occurs on power off, no flap stalls (at least on a Cessna)
On the flight test you can recognize that you are stalled when you have full back pressure and the altitude is still decreasing. I find this most often occurs on power off, no flap stalls (at least on a Cessna)
Some really excellent advice here. I have been a DFTE (now called Pilot Examiner or "PE") for more than 13 years. I have to say that there is a lot of confusion with students and when the stall is actually occurring.
Here are some common misconceptions:
"the nose always drops when an aircraft stalls"
This is incorrect. It does happen on many light aircraft, but not all... and not consistently. It depends on a number of factors, as others have stated previously. I have failed candidates because they "can't get the aircraft to stall" when, in fact it has been stalled for some seconds, but the nose didn't drop.
"when I feel the buffet, we are stalled"
Also incorrect. Although buffeting may occur during the stall, it also occurs prior to the stall as well. It is simply (on light aircraft) turbulent air from the wings flowing over the tail. This is also a fail on the flight test for the inability to recognize the stall.
There is only one real way to tell for certain:
-Guy
Here are some common misconceptions:
"the nose always drops when an aircraft stalls"
This is incorrect. It does happen on many light aircraft, but not all... and not consistently. It depends on a number of factors, as others have stated previously. I have failed candidates because they "can't get the aircraft to stall" when, in fact it has been stalled for some seconds, but the nose didn't drop.
"when I feel the buffet, we are stalled"
Also incorrect. Although buffeting may occur during the stall, it also occurs prior to the stall as well. It is simply (on light aircraft) turbulent air from the wings flowing over the tail. This is also a fail on the flight test for the inability to recognize the stall.
There is only one real way to tell for certain:
Great discussion!mcrit wrote:The one symptom that is universal to all stalls is the inability to hold altitude with full backpressure. When this occurs the a/c is stalled."
-Guy
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Cat Driver
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Quote:
" Great discussion!
-Guy "
I agree, and next we should discuss one of the most important and in my opinion rushed and missunderstood lessons in flight instruction....Attitudes and Movements......
Without a full understanding of this first building block in flight instruction we will have poor pilots with substandard flying skills due to not understanding the basics.
After forty six years as first a licensed flight instructor and now an independent advanced flight teacher ( There is a big difference in the two descriptions.) it never ceases to amaze me how many pilots I find with poor understanding of the basics of aircraft handling skills.
Like any building process with a poor foundation the end result will be a poor product.
Cat
" Great discussion!
-Guy "
I agree, and next we should discuss one of the most important and in my opinion rushed and missunderstood lessons in flight instruction....Attitudes and Movements......
Without a full understanding of this first building block in flight instruction we will have poor pilots with substandard flying skills due to not understanding the basics.
After forty six years as first a licensed flight instructor and now an independent advanced flight teacher ( There is a big difference in the two descriptions.) it never ceases to amaze me how many pilots I find with poor understanding of the basics of aircraft handling skills.
Like any building process with a poor foundation the end result will be a poor product.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I don't think anyone will dispute the fact that the fundimentals in flying are the most important. Certainly, I don't.Cat Driver wrote: I agree, and next we should discuss one of the most important and in my opinion rushed and missunderstood lessons in flight instruction....Attitudes and Movements......
If the foundation isn't there, the advanced skills will be weak, at best.
Good point.
-Guy
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fougapilot
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Back to stalls.
One of the biggest miss conception in stall understanding is speed. Many pilots and instructors strongly believe that an airplane stalls at XXKTS. While in fact the only constant with a stall is the angle of attack (AOA) at which it occurs. Speed has NOTHING to do with a stall. I for one remember, in a previous life, stalling a Tutor at nearly 170kias when the published stall speed is somewhat below 100kias. Needless to say my instructor was LMHOROTF while I was fighting for my life trying to recover from this "goat F$%^" I had put myself in. (lesson one on high speed stalls, KEEP THE BALL CENTERED.....)
Too often (back in my instructor days) did I see student put themselves in a tight spot, while defending their actions with words like "I wasn't gonna stall, I still had 10kias above the published speed". At which point I would be glad to demonstrate to them High speed stalls and wing over with 0kias on top only to make my point, stall has nothing to do with speed, and everything to do with AOA.
D
One of the biggest miss conception in stall understanding is speed. Many pilots and instructors strongly believe that an airplane stalls at XXKTS. While in fact the only constant with a stall is the angle of attack (AOA) at which it occurs. Speed has NOTHING to do with a stall. I for one remember, in a previous life, stalling a Tutor at nearly 170kias when the published stall speed is somewhat below 100kias. Needless to say my instructor was LMHOROTF while I was fighting for my life trying to recover from this "goat F$%^" I had put myself in. (lesson one on high speed stalls, KEEP THE BALL CENTERED.....)
Too often (back in my instructor days) did I see student put themselves in a tight spot, while defending their actions with words like "I wasn't gonna stall, I still had 10kias above the published speed". At which point I would be glad to demonstrate to them High speed stalls and wing over with 0kias on top only to make my point, stall has nothing to do with speed, and everything to do with AOA.
D
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bob sacamano
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.;
Couldn't agree with you more re: Attitudes and Movements. For me the "light" always seemed to come on over a students head when they finally realized that all important equation...
Attitude + Power = Performance
Once they got that idea down in their head, the progression of learning always seemed to accelerate, regardless of what stage of flight training it happened (I've worked with commercial students that were never properly schooled on that one...).
I think a big problem is that some instructors are programmed to believe that the lesson is to be taught once (and rushed through at that) and then you move on in the syllabus. Attitudes and movements should be a lesson taught (in some form anyways) every time you go flying with a student. Since we almost always relate what we want the student to do by speaking about aircraft attitudes, it's an easy goal to incorporate these fundamentals every time you instruct...
And as far as the stalls, great discussion...I know of at least one aircraft that just about went down due to the PTT wires jamming the yoke. The pilots caught it in time, but filled their shorts nonetheless.
Couldn't agree with you more re: Attitudes and Movements. For me the "light" always seemed to come on over a students head when they finally realized that all important equation...
Attitude + Power = Performance
Once they got that idea down in their head, the progression of learning always seemed to accelerate, regardless of what stage of flight training it happened (I've worked with commercial students that were never properly schooled on that one...).
I think a big problem is that some instructors are programmed to believe that the lesson is to be taught once (and rushed through at that) and then you move on in the syllabus. Attitudes and movements should be a lesson taught (in some form anyways) every time you go flying with a student. Since we almost always relate what we want the student to do by speaking about aircraft attitudes, it's an easy goal to incorporate these fundamentals every time you instruct...
And as far as the stalls, great discussion...I know of at least one aircraft that just about went down due to the PTT wires jamming the yoke. The pilots caught it in time, but filled their shorts nonetheless.
Has anyone ever done a demo of a falling leaf stall to a student?
Just to get rid of the fear that the aircraft is going to crash there and then if they don't jam full power and cram the nose down?
A lot of altitude can be saved by only lowering the nose enough to break the stall and allow the aircrafts power to accelerate it. Or in the case of a power off recovery lowering the nose to the attitude for best glide.
Just wondering if anyone has ever tried it.
Just to get rid of the fear that the aircraft is going to crash there and then if they don't jam full power and cram the nose down?
A lot of altitude can be saved by only lowering the nose enough to break the stall and allow the aircrafts power to accelerate it. Or in the case of a power off recovery lowering the nose to the attitude for best glide.
Just wondering if anyone has ever tried it.
Yes, many times. It does give them (the student) an appreciation of what a stall actually is. Just keep the control column in a cessna trainer full back, and keep the nose straight with rudder, and lose 1,000 feet.BTD wrote:Has anyone ever done a demo of a falling leaf stall to a student?
Just to get rid of the fear that the aircraft is going to crash there and then if they don't jam full power and cram the nose down?
A lot of altitude can be saved by only lowering the nose enough to break the stall and allow the aircrafts power to accelerate it. Or in the case of a power off recovery lowering the nose to the attitude for best glide.
Just wondering if anyone has ever tried it.
Vert effective on showing what a stall is, and the power off recovery.
If a student is very afraid of stalls, I tell them I am going to demo "very slow flight" and show them... then I let them in on the secret. Suddenly, they are not-so-afraid.
Funny.
-Guy
Agreed.
I used the falling leaf technique the other day to demonstrate that the wings can (and MUST) be held level using rudder only.
The student found it very helpful, and to increase their confidence I challenged them to see who could hold the airplane stalled the longest. It does wonders for their confidence, plus show how easily an aircraft will unstall itself - especially if you have to fight to keep it there.
I also find many lessons rushed through. Stalls one of them. So many different combinations and scenerios.
I do find though, that a student is more confident and comfortable with spins once they have spent a couple of hours on stalls. Why progress to the next stage if the student is ready?
Interesting tips and opinions, very good topic.
- Isis
I used the falling leaf technique the other day to demonstrate that the wings can (and MUST) be held level using rudder only.
The student found it very helpful, and to increase their confidence I challenged them to see who could hold the airplane stalled the longest. It does wonders for their confidence, plus show how easily an aircraft will unstall itself - especially if you have to fight to keep it there.
I also find many lessons rushed through. Stalls one of them. So many different combinations and scenerios.
I do find though, that a student is more confident and comfortable with spins once they have spent a couple of hours on stalls. Why progress to the next stage if the student is ready?
Interesting tips and opinions, very good topic.
- Isis
Keep Flyin'!
Some practice area's are too busy to spend a lot of time in a nose high attitude waiting for the speed to bleed and this account for the fear that some instructors have towards teaching the stall and as a result this fear can be felt by the student as a fear of stalls not the fear of mid-air in the busy practice area.
Playing a nice tune on the stall horn can demo how much pitch control is available even that close to a stall (Oh Canada works nice and you can usually get the young's one's to sing it as you play it) Great fun and after all isn't that what flying is all about
Do not forget to keep a good lookout and enjoy the ride.
Playing a nice tune on the stall horn can demo how much pitch control is available even that close to a stall (Oh Canada works nice and you can usually get the young's one's to sing it as you play it) Great fun and after all isn't that what flying is all about
Do not forget to keep a good lookout and enjoy the ride.
