Keystone Navajo Accident in Thompson

[Darkwing Duck]

Sounds like certain YTH fuellers were an accident waiting to happen.

SMS? Hello?

It reminds me of paying a fuel bill before heading home. This fiddly habit I have to pull the gas caps and look inside that time showed empty tanks.

What is an SMS going to do? Sure you may have an SMS at your operator but does the Esso? I highly doubt that. And even if you submit a SMS would Esso comply to your operator's suggestions to amend their procedures? Something tells me no. And who will be monitoring the SMS outside your company? Does Transport?

[TeePeeCreeper]

Sure you may have an SMS at your operator but does the Esso? I highly doubt that.

I've no bull in this fight but it's my understanding that the petroleum industry was one of the key "players" in developing the SMS concept.

I would be VERY surprised if a corporation such as the aforementioned one did not have an SMS program in place. (Flaws in their FBO system SMS would be my best guess!)

All the best,
TPC

[Darkwing Duck]

Absolutely ZERO blame should go to the fueller. Mistakes happen, but there are systems in place to detect these errors and correct them before someone dies.

Uh, no. Yes, assuming the fuel was the issue the final responsibility lies with the pilot, but that doesn't relieve the fueler of the responsibility to do his job correctly. More than one person fucked up, and more than one person should be held to account. People shouldn't be doing their job at all if their attitude is that someone else with fix their fuckups.

+1 the refueler is to blame as well. 50/50 blame here. He should A) know the type of aircraft and type of fuel it uses B) know what truck has what product in the tank C) if you do not know, ASK. Better to think you look like a fool by asking what you may think is a dumb question than being a fool because you didn't ask a question.

When I was refueling my boss actually pulled our Jet B truck up to a Cessna twin (no it was not a Conquest). Our B truck and Avgas truck were practically identical so looking back it was a pretty easy mistake to make. In fact I am surprised it did not happen more often, but we all knew that these trucks looked alike and knew to double check we had the correct truck. Anyway, I radioed him and told him his error prior to him pulling out the hose. Mistakes happen, we have to look out for each other prior to having a major disaster or worse, lose of life.

[pelmet]

Only once did I get a bill that said Jet fuel instead of Avgas. The FBO assured me that it was a typo. Checked the fuel carefully for oiliness, and smell and if a drop of water was setting normally for avgas which it did. Was still blue colour. I had read that if you get Jet fuel by accident the CHT's on the runup may be very high, so I checked that as well with a full power runup for a decent time. Fortunately, it was a typo.

[human garbage]

...I had read that if you get Jet fuel by accident the CHT's on the runup may be very high, so I checked that as well with a full power runup for a decent time...

You are correct about the high EGTs. I read that in a NTSB report years ago (that I can't find now). It will only happen under 30% Jet to Avgas though. Anything above that is basically un-burnable according to this Swiss accident report: http://www.sust.admin.ch/pdfs/AV-berichte//1767e.pdf

[Donald]

Here's a report from 2010 that shows what can happen when avgas is contaminated with diesel or jet fuel:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 0c0123.pdf

[Yycaviator]

I once had th fueller at this airport put my fuel order in one aircraft, and their fuel order on mine. I was on the heavy side so figured they were under fuelled with my order. I ran over to make sure the crew took a second look before firing up.

[FAF]

Was at the Thompson Esso today, doors are still locked. Nice brand new covers on the pumps that say what type of fuel it is. Heard a great idea of simply putting a color coded band around the truck to identify fuel. It would stick out like a sore thumb if it was in front of the wrong plane, even if the crew didn't see it, would make it more noticeable to everyone.

[Maynard]

For competent people, that might work, but it won't solve the problem. If I ask for Jet A and he hops in his avgas truck, which is labeled avgas, (100LL)a pretty colour won't fix stupid. If I ask for the purple truck, he's still going to hop in his green truck. ..
I imagine YAM is losing a lot of business as well....they won't over wing fuel any Jet A

[Taxivasion]

I imagine YAM is losing a lot of business as well....they won't over wing fuel any Jet A

quite possibly the dumbest thing i've ever heard. hopefully they are hurting.

[RatherBeFlying]

[quote]SMS? Hello?

What is an SMS going to do? Sure you may have an SMS at your operator but does the Esso?[/quote]

You mistake me for a fan of bureaucratic wallpapering mixed with consultantspeak – SMS in TCspeak

[Siddley Hawker]

What are they using for refuelling nozzles? Wasn't there a changeover of nozzles after Bob Hoover got refuelled with the wrong fuel to prevent misfuelling?

[lownslow]

What are they using for refuelling nozzles? Wasn't there a changeover of nozzles after Bob Hoover got refuelled with the wrong fuel to prevent misfuelling?

Unfortunately it seems a lot of helicopter companies didn't get the memo. The kind of copters you usually see flying around the North often have to have the skinny nozzle on the Jet-A hose, which then makes it so much easier to fuel a Navajo or whatever with the wrong stuff.

[North Shore]

The helicopter operation at CYTH has their own tank, so I don't think that's a factor...

[Cap'n Tripps]

http://www.cjob.com/2015/10/01/tsb-conf ... f=facebook

Wrong fuel.

[cdnpilot77]

Pretty sure if any one of the following had of been done: fuelling monitor, sump test, a look at the receipt or a visual inspection of the fuel tanks, this would have been discovered. 50/50 blame, there are enough reasonable steps to catch such a mistake. This crew and that fueller are extremely lucky that all came out alive. All that remains to be seen is if the lawyers are going to sue this company into oblivion!

[YBW-Kid]

What are they using for refuelling nozzles? Wasn't there a changeover of nozzles after Bob Hoover got refuelled with the wrong fuel to prevent misfuelling?

Unfortunately it seems a lot of helicopter companies didn't get the memo. The kind of copters you usually see flying around the North often have to have the skinny nozzle on the Jet-A hose, which then makes it so much easier to fuel a Navajo or whatever with the wrong stuff.

I would say there are enough of these fuelling incidents on the books to enact in law the requirement for fuel providers to have the large flared fuel nozzle on all Jet fuel hoses. No exceptions. Avgas aircraft would be required to have the small nozzle fuel restrictors installed. No exceptions.

Perhaps a simple technology solution like a small QR scan code on the aircraft nose to activate the fuel pumps on the fuel truck if the proper fuel is parked in front of the aircraft type indicated on the scan.

[Gear Jerker]

It is so amazing and fortunate that no lives were lost, and there was no post crash fire. Say what you will about the crew's involvement/responsibility regarding the Jet A, but once they brought the gear up and were committed they must have done as well as it can possibly be done.

Having previously dealt with YTH Esso on a regular basis while working dispatch for a company who regularly used their services, I'll add to the list of people who were consistently pissed off and untrusting in dealing with them. I think this was bound to happen at some point, and hopefully changes result which improve aviation safety.

[Strega]

When unleaded auto fuel came on the seen, it was no issue to use a "restrictor" to prevent people from filling with leaded fuel..(as the lead would ruin the catalytic converter)

I think its time that something like this is done in aviation, A friend of mine was killed last year in an incident with jet a with a malibu in Spokane..

[goldeneagle]

I think its time that something like this is done in aviation,

It was done, a long time ago, Jet fuel nozzles are to big to fit in the hole for an avgas tank.

The problem, somebody keeps taking the nozzles off, and putting the little ones onto the Jet truck.

As an industry, there is something that needs to be recognized. Fuel truck operators in general are not hired because they are knowledgeable about airplanes. They are hired because they are willing to accept a dirty job with terrible hours, for a rather low rate of pay. There is a system in place where different sized nozzles are installed on different trucks, to prevent exactly this kind of accident due to a poorly trained fueler not realizing s/he is about to put the wrong fuel into the aircraft.

What is the point of having different sized nozzles to protect against exactly this kind of incident, if the fuel truck operators are changing them around willy nilly.

They need to change the system, so that correct sized nozzles are not 'reccomended', they are MANDATORY, and then to accomodate the occaisional helicopter with wrong size filler plug, the truck can carry an adapter which clips onto the big nozzle. That adapter should come off after EVERY use, and, only go on after confirming it's required.

The Jet fuel truck should NOT have small nozzles installed, period.

[Strega]

I understand about the "duck bill nozzle" but it is not been implemented by mandate...

how many more people will die?

[goingnowherefast]

Put out an AD requiring all helicopters and turbine conversions (Turbo Otter, etc.) to have the large openings for the Jet A nozzles. After a 6 month phase in period, braze every last Jet A nozzle in place so nobody can switch it.

[RatherBeFlying]

Until the helicopters and DHC-2 conversions get fitted with JetA/B ports, require each to carry its own adapter with the reg stamped or etched on. If your aircraft has a narrow port you have to provide the adapter to the fueller and get it back when you sign for the bill.

Enact a $25,000 penalty for any fueling provider found with an adapter.

Big savings in insurance after the insurers finish with the premium hike to pay out this claim.

[Edo]

Most people on this site bitch whine and moan about new regulations. Funny to see so many of you wanting a regulation to deal with this

Anyone tried to get jerry can filled lately ? most refuelers wont do it not because if static (I can accept that reSon) but because THE FBO will not accept the risk of dispensing fuel unto a Jerry that may not be clean. For fucks sake the aircraft tank may not be clean either
Ya its way better to force a 172 into stretching fuel reserve than stopping a a small airport to toss another 10 gallons in.

Now no over wing jetA? Give me a fucking break.

[leftoftrack]

Why declare an electrical emergency?