I found another good WEB site the covers FEDERAL occupations (Aviation), This site deals directly with Workers Rights, as outlined through Federal/Provincial Legislation.
http://www.workrights.ca/Getting+Paid/j ... ederal.htm
This information is also informative and must reading for people just starting out or those AMEs who are curious.
Horseman
apprentice
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
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Mitch Cronin
- Rank 8
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- Location: Right beside my dog again...
Posted by "Guest": "<i> Let me ask a question???? I know that what i'm going to suggest will enrage some. But how's about a national union of ame's & appr. Something like the electricions and welders and plumbers all have.</i>"
I'm an AME at Air Canada and I have to tell you that all of us are disgusted with the current representation we have and the general state of affairs as detailed by the other gentlemen here...
There IS just such an organization that is currently a fledgeling without any official representatives as yet, but we're working hard at it... at AC to begin with... it's Called the Canadian Aircraft Maintenance Association (CAMA) Modeled after the AMFA (Aircraft Maintenance Fraternal Association, from the US), and will, in time, be seeking to do exactly as you propose...
Please have a look.... http://www.canama.ca ("cama.ca" was already used by some agricultural associtaion, so they had to settle for "canama" for the web site)
We do indeed deserve to have our own association!
I'm an AME at Air Canada and I have to tell you that all of us are disgusted with the current representation we have and the general state of affairs as detailed by the other gentlemen here...
There IS just such an organization that is currently a fledgeling without any official representatives as yet, but we're working hard at it... at AC to begin with... it's Called the Canadian Aircraft Maintenance Association (CAMA) Modeled after the AMFA (Aircraft Maintenance Fraternal Association, from the US), and will, in time, be seeking to do exactly as you propose...
Please have a look.... http://www.canama.ca ("cama.ca" was already used by some agricultural associtaion, so they had to settle for "canama" for the web site)
We do indeed deserve to have our own association!
CAMC - RESPONSE TO QUERY - NONE
Horseman wrote:Pat
Your comments got me thinking so I did the right thing and sent CAMC a letter outlining my thought concerning this matter and their mandate.
As the aviation industry's sector council, CAMC champions and encourages initiatives to develop the overall strength and economic well-being of the industry through the development of national occupational standards for skilled trades, professional certification for technicians, the development of curriculum and accreditation of training institutions, youth orientation programs and recruitment and retention strategies for the future.
I will let the forum know what their response is, but I don't expect too much except a form letter. I just want to know what their strategy is.
Horseman
Pat:
Sent the above question to CAMC on the 14th, and haven't heard a peep from them, didn't even give me a curtesy form letter. I guess you were right about them.
Horseman
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Pat Richard
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- Location: all over
Hey horseman,
I just got back from the AME symposium in Cowtown, and I spoke to one of the camc people about this topic. The individual agreed completly with what has been stated here. That's great, there totally aware of it. They claim they have no means to change this." You can't bite the hands that feed you" is readily apparent here. They did mention that they had recieved a email(I believe yours) from someone with a son employed ,making poor wages, and trying to get by.But again, the're toothless/powerless to induce change.The only goodthing is you can write off the membership dues.
Field aviation was there looking to hire people.But what there offering(AME's) is piss poor. Level 3 engineer was around 22 a/hr, with a level 1 topping out at around 25. They are at least hiring, but when I questioned who was filling out applications, the rep said mostly apprentices. At those wages, I can see why. I think most AME's are tired of stepping sideways or backwards at their own expense.
None of the group I was there with(all employed AME's) considered applying. Why move to make less/ same money, at your expense?.
I have to think back to TCAS's comment about the "industry hanging itself", as that's probably what it's going to take before they instigate change.
Pat
I just got back from the AME symposium in Cowtown, and I spoke to one of the camc people about this topic. The individual agreed completly with what has been stated here. That's great, there totally aware of it. They claim they have no means to change this." You can't bite the hands that feed you" is readily apparent here. They did mention that they had recieved a email(I believe yours) from someone with a son employed ,making poor wages, and trying to get by.But again, the're toothless/powerless to induce change.The only goodthing is you can write off the membership dues.
Field aviation was there looking to hire people.But what there offering(AME's) is piss poor. Level 3 engineer was around 22 a/hr, with a level 1 topping out at around 25. They are at least hiring, but when I questioned who was filling out applications, the rep said mostly apprentices. At those wages, I can see why. I think most AME's are tired of stepping sideways or backwards at their own expense.
None of the group I was there with(all employed AME's) considered applying. Why move to make less/ same money, at your expense?.
I have to think back to TCAS's comment about the "industry hanging itself", as that's probably what it's going to take before they instigate change.
Pat
Pat
Thanks for the info, I believe that the next 5 years will tell the tale. The HRDC study on the Aviation Maintenance Industry (Page 11/12) states that the full affect of the aging workface will start then.
This study can be found on the CAMC web site at:
http://www.camc.ca/downloads/Executive%20Summary.pdf
It talks about recruitment and retention, but doesn't get into the pay issue.
Horseman
Thanks for the info, I believe that the next 5 years will tell the tale. The HRDC study on the Aviation Maintenance Industry (Page 11/12) states that the full affect of the aging workface will start then.
This study can be found on the CAMC web site at:
http://www.camc.ca/downloads/Executive%20Summary.pdf
It talks about recruitment and retention, but doesn't get into the pay issue.
Horseman
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Pat Richard
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: all over
What a load of shit. "The industry does not have a retention problem. Workers who join the industry tend to stay", and " Work conditions and wages are not issues for retention of workers"? Who the hell did they talk to?
Interestingly enough, I read a report in 1991, also commisioned by the then UI, that stated work conditions/wages were a retention problem. It even went as far to show comparison charts for wages/hours between aviation and other trades to drive home the point.
I particularly remember a part about industry not wanting to pay more to its workers because of the difficulty attracting back skilled workers after layoffs. They were trying to keep their potential for losses minimal. They reasoned that after a trained worker refused to comeback after being laid off, they incur the cost of having to bring a usually less experienced hire up to speed. Due to the hire/fire practices of the industry, this is repetive. This was considered a major problem. But I guess, according to the new report, it no longer is.
The part about the focusing on the pacific rim as a source for skilled labour is scary. I personaly know of a operator who does this at YVR.
His staff mainly consist's of Sri Lankans and Filipinos. He is paying 18- 20 a/hr to the ones who are licensed. They accept it cause it's more than they say they would make at home. This is very bad news, if it is a developing trend, for AME's standard of living in the future, which will continue spiral downward.
Industry will apparently look for any kind of alternative except fair treatment of AME's, including bullshit studies, to shopping worldwide for sweatshop refugees.
Pat
Interestingly enough, I read a report in 1991, also commisioned by the then UI, that stated work conditions/wages were a retention problem. It even went as far to show comparison charts for wages/hours between aviation and other trades to drive home the point.
I particularly remember a part about industry not wanting to pay more to its workers because of the difficulty attracting back skilled workers after layoffs. They were trying to keep their potential for losses minimal. They reasoned that after a trained worker refused to comeback after being laid off, they incur the cost of having to bring a usually less experienced hire up to speed. Due to the hire/fire practices of the industry, this is repetive. This was considered a major problem. But I guess, according to the new report, it no longer is.
The part about the focusing on the pacific rim as a source for skilled labour is scary. I personaly know of a operator who does this at YVR.
His staff mainly consist's of Sri Lankans and Filipinos. He is paying 18- 20 a/hr to the ones who are licensed. They accept it cause it's more than they say they would make at home. This is very bad news, if it is a developing trend, for AME's standard of living in the future, which will continue spiral downward.
Industry will apparently look for any kind of alternative except fair treatment of AME's, including bullshit studies, to shopping worldwide for sweatshop refugees.
Pat
Last edited by Pat Richard on Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pat Richard
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Pat Richard
- Rank 8
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This just keeps getting better and better. Take a look and see what flight attendants can make with 6 weeks of training.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=872
pat
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=872
pat
I agree with many of the opinions given. IMHO the biggest problem in this country in general, and not just in aviation, is the level of taxation that we all face.
I agree AME's should be payed more. The immense reasponsibilities we all face everyday is overwhelming. As long as I can sleep at night knowing I did my job right, I will remain in aviation. However, if I find myself questioning my abilities and/or morals, I will walk away.
To address some of the key issues before us, comparing auto mechanics to AME's is in essence comparing apples to oranges.
IE: Auto mechanics that I know, have a flat rate hourly wage + an additional task rate. $18.00 hr as an example + $10.00 for a brake job. If the said mechanic completes his task in 1 hour, he's making $28.00hr, however, if it takes him 3 hrs to do that same job the $10.00= $3.33hr.
Aviation does not work that way. At least I have not been exposed to that type of pay schedule.
I have also compared the average pay rates to our counterparts in the USA.
My information is derived from the AMT website, salary survey for 2003.
I have found CDN pay rates to be relatively in line with the US. The biggest difference is in the NET pay.
Why can American citizens deduct their MORTGAGE payments off of their income taxes, and we in Canada cannot?
We can claim credits for PROPERTY taxes paid, but not MORTGAGE payments.
I am not trying to change the topic of discussion, but I am simply trying to put things into perspective.
Do AME's need to come together to improve not only our working conditions and pay rates, yes, but we also MUST make the general flying public aware and to understand what it is that we do everyday.
Are there underpaid AME's and mechanics out there? Sure there are. There are also many different occupations that can be added to the list.
Will there be a shortage of AME's, IMHO Idont think so. Transport Canada has allowed students to come out school with all of their exams already completed, with the exception of CARS, why?
Will we ever unite AME'S under 1 voice, it will be difficult. However with the changes in technology, attitudes, and the awareness of what other industries will pay for good "mechanics", I think the tide will shift to AME's and to the apprentices that aspire to become AME's.
Sincerely, Nick
I agree AME's should be payed more. The immense reasponsibilities we all face everyday is overwhelming. As long as I can sleep at night knowing I did my job right, I will remain in aviation. However, if I find myself questioning my abilities and/or morals, I will walk away.
To address some of the key issues before us, comparing auto mechanics to AME's is in essence comparing apples to oranges.
IE: Auto mechanics that I know, have a flat rate hourly wage + an additional task rate. $18.00 hr as an example + $10.00 for a brake job. If the said mechanic completes his task in 1 hour, he's making $28.00hr, however, if it takes him 3 hrs to do that same job the $10.00= $3.33hr.
Aviation does not work that way. At least I have not been exposed to that type of pay schedule.
I have also compared the average pay rates to our counterparts in the USA.
My information is derived from the AMT website, salary survey for 2003.
I have found CDN pay rates to be relatively in line with the US. The biggest difference is in the NET pay.
Why can American citizens deduct their MORTGAGE payments off of their income taxes, and we in Canada cannot?
We can claim credits for PROPERTY taxes paid, but not MORTGAGE payments.
I am not trying to change the topic of discussion, but I am simply trying to put things into perspective.
Do AME's need to come together to improve not only our working conditions and pay rates, yes, but we also MUST make the general flying public aware and to understand what it is that we do everyday.
Are there underpaid AME's and mechanics out there? Sure there are. There are also many different occupations that can be added to the list.
Will there be a shortage of AME's, IMHO Idont think so. Transport Canada has allowed students to come out school with all of their exams already completed, with the exception of CARS, why?
Will we ever unite AME'S under 1 voice, it will be difficult. However with the changes in technology, attitudes, and the awareness of what other industries will pay for good "mechanics", I think the tide will shift to AME's and to the apprentices that aspire to become AME's.
Sincerely, Nick
Oh you poor weary AME's......Here's one for you.....I got a job as an Apprentice at a company up north....without ever going to school....and believe it or not no aircraft experience.....There is a wonderful school in Portage la Prairie, MB that will train you 9 weeks out of the year if you have a job at a company willing to do the apprenticeship program...Your tuition is paid for by the government....you get EI while you are there and a hundred bucks a week living allowance....you also get travel pay ontop of that....It takes the same amount of time (7200 hrs) and you end up with a licence and no debt.....PS....just to tick you off....the company started at 12.00/hr (no experience)....and before you start saying that we are not as good as the 2 yr guys...you are wrong....ask around we are even better than the 2 yr guys.!!!! I am laughing with the money I make now!!!!! 
System Purge
Coldtoes, let me explain something to you. Enjoy the country side while you can and enjoy the $400 a week too. To be successful, you might need to drop the "poor ames", and "better than the next guy" attitude. The free schooling and the cash might be overwhelming now at $12/hr with $100/week luxury fund, but it has very little to do with being an AME. Not to disrespect the school that you went to but if that's the attitude you're gaining from apprenticeship, your license might not be too useful in the future.
A wise man who taught at one of those shi*ty 2 year schools once told me: "It's easy to acquire a good name in the industry, but even easier to acquire a bad one".
Not that my advice is useful, but focusing on what's to come rather than what has come would benefit you a lot more than focusing on being better than the 2 year guys. A bad attitude, a toolbox, and airplanes are as useful to you as water inside your oxygen system.
Purging is somewhat recommended.
A wise man who taught at one of those shi*ty 2 year schools once told me: "It's easy to acquire a good name in the industry, but even easier to acquire a bad one".
Not that my advice is useful, but focusing on what's to come rather than what has come would benefit you a lot more than focusing on being better than the 2 year guys. A bad attitude, a toolbox, and airplanes are as useful to you as water inside your oxygen system.
Purging is somewhat recommended.
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Pat Richard
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- Location: all over
wooohooo!, 12 bucks an hour. what should you buy first, the good macaroni& cheese(spiral noodles), or step up to hambuger helper? I'm so envious. the fact you were hired in the north with no experience is hardly a surprise. These days they take ANYBODY who's willing work up there. Most poor, weary AME's are hardly tempted to go there. They leave it to the unschooled, unexperienced,unlicensed engineers to cash in on the generous pay.LOL! Like planeguy said, enjoy your subsidized life while you can, your wakeup call will arrive shortly. 12 bucks an hour....
Pat
Pat
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Pat Richard
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The point about auto mechanics vs. AME's, I think if you look at the yearly earnings it will give you a more accurate picture. Most auto mechs make the same or more than AME's. I think that its still apples to oranges, but rather in lifestyle and liabilities. The fact that we're in the same wage bracket, considering lifestyle/liability, is wrong. As for other trades,with the same types of responsibilties/liabilities, that make the same or less, I'm honestly not aware of any.Im aware of many, less demanding, trades that pay the same or more.
I agree with the points on taxes. But really, its a moot point. If the tax laws changed to the more favourable tomorrow,great. We would still not be earning more than most plumbers . It would make being paid more hourly more attractive, if income tax was reduced, but whats stopping industry from paying that now? We're the ones who'd be paying the tax.
They just don't feel we're worth more, plain and simple.
Pat
I agree with the points on taxes. But really, its a moot point. If the tax laws changed to the more favourable tomorrow,great. We would still not be earning more than most plumbers . It would make being paid more hourly more attractive, if income tax was reduced, but whats stopping industry from paying that now? We're the ones who'd be paying the tax.
They just don't feel we're worth more, plain and simple.
Pat
Coldtoes, poor AME's? What are you aspiring to become? Stevenson is a good school. If the Manitoba gov't wants to support you while you educate yourself, thats great. The quality of the education isn't the issue here.
However this arrogant attitude that you are projecting, will do little to help you. You are correct in the fact of 7200hrs is still required. You are correct
about no exams to write after school.
BUT, someone (AME) still has to sign off 70% of the tasks in your log book. With the attitude you have, you'd be lucky to get chapter 12 signed off, let alone anything else.
What YOU call aircraft maintenance with no experiance is equivelent to washing engine cowls and checking tire pressures.
Pat.
I believe we all share very similar views as to wages and working conditions. We all deserve more pay. I have a question though. I have been told, now this is simply a statement that was made to me by an Older AME, that the CDN gov't veiws AME"S as semi skilled workers. Do you know if this statement is true? I haven't had the time to research this topic.
If it is true, that is 1 issue that we as AME's MUST address. How can we expect or demand anything, if we are not recognised as a high skilled trade. Perhaps this is an avenue that can help bring AME"S across this country together.
I await your response. Sincerely Nick.
However this arrogant attitude that you are projecting, will do little to help you. You are correct in the fact of 7200hrs is still required. You are correct
about no exams to write after school.
BUT, someone (AME) still has to sign off 70% of the tasks in your log book. With the attitude you have, you'd be lucky to get chapter 12 signed off, let alone anything else.
What YOU call aircraft maintenance with no experiance is equivelent to washing engine cowls and checking tire pressures.
Pat.
I believe we all share very similar views as to wages and working conditions. We all deserve more pay. I have a question though. I have been told, now this is simply a statement that was made to me by an Older AME, that the CDN gov't veiws AME"S as semi skilled workers. Do you know if this statement is true? I haven't had the time to research this topic.
If it is true, that is 1 issue that we as AME's MUST address. How can we expect or demand anything, if we are not recognised as a high skilled trade. Perhaps this is an avenue that can help bring AME"S across this country together.
I await your response. Sincerely Nick.
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Pat Richard
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Hmmm... You know, I seem to recall a number of years ago that the government tried to revoke the "engineer" title from us. I'm not sure of the reasoning for it then, but it would make sense if they classify us as semi-skilled. I would really have to dig deeper to confirm it, but Im sure there is somthing to it.
You're right though, in that if that is the case, that it needs to be changed. I guess that classifies us with carpenters helpers,etc
. i know, technically speaking, that we are not "engineers" in the classic sense of designing and building, but we are certainly more than mechanics, and I don't think I need to explain the reasons why. I believe the title came from the British, who still use it to describe personnel with signing authority.
Truth is though, industry knows that we are critical to them, and although I'd for sure like to see us classed as "skilled" workers, they should not be waiting for a change in government classification of AME's to treat us accordingly.
Cheers
pat
You're right though, in that if that is the case, that it needs to be changed. I guess that classifies us with carpenters helpers,etc
. i know, technically speaking, that we are not "engineers" in the classic sense of designing and building, but we are certainly more than mechanics, and I don't think I need to explain the reasons why. I believe the title came from the British, who still use it to describe personnel with signing authority.Truth is though, industry knows that we are critical to them, and although I'd for sure like to see us classed as "skilled" workers, they should not be waiting for a change in government classification of AME's to treat us accordingly.
Cheers
pat
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Mr. Maintenance
- Rank 0
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:41 am
" i know, technically speaking, that we are not "engineers" in the classic sense of designing and building, but we are certainly more than mechanics, and I don't think I need to explain the reasons why. I believe the title came from the British, who still use it to describe personnel with signing authority. "
Hi,
I've been following your discussions about AME's, salaries, training, etc. I'd like to point out that in some countries, the word " engineer " denotes a four or five year ( depending on the country ) degree from a university, registration in a professional association of engineers upon passing an ethics exam, much like passing the bar exam for a lawyer, usually at a provincial or state level ( which requires the university degree ).
The education involves a variety of courses on subjects such as advanced calculus, thermodynamics, applied electricity and or physics, resistance of materials, thermal and stress analysis, computer programming,
professional ethics, and more.
Maintaining aeroplanes, as complex and demanding as it is, still does not involve studying the subjects described above, because obviously, they are not required for the purpose of maintenance; thus the title " Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. This title deserving, and this trade are far from being " unskilled ", and more in line with the former, and still used by some companies, title of " Stationary Engineer " ( 2nd class, or 3rd class )
by professionals who maintain industrial pumps, valves, electrical motors, and the equipment seen in industrial mills.
The " signing authority " has more to do with the liability that is involved in case of a mishap, whereas a " professional engineer would use his/her stamp approving a design for which he/she is also legally responsible.
I also would like to know what the opinion is among AME's (M's), of Avionics AME's, how would you classify them, their quality of work, and particularly, when M professionals " attempt " to perform some tasks reserved for avionics, and to what extent should they be liable in signing a maintenance release, when that is the case ?
Mr. Maintenance
Hi,
I've been following your discussions about AME's, salaries, training, etc. I'd like to point out that in some countries, the word " engineer " denotes a four or five year ( depending on the country ) degree from a university, registration in a professional association of engineers upon passing an ethics exam, much like passing the bar exam for a lawyer, usually at a provincial or state level ( which requires the university degree ).
The education involves a variety of courses on subjects such as advanced calculus, thermodynamics, applied electricity and or physics, resistance of materials, thermal and stress analysis, computer programming,
professional ethics, and more.
Maintaining aeroplanes, as complex and demanding as it is, still does not involve studying the subjects described above, because obviously, they are not required for the purpose of maintenance; thus the title " Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. This title deserving, and this trade are far from being " unskilled ", and more in line with the former, and still used by some companies, title of " Stationary Engineer " ( 2nd class, or 3rd class )
by professionals who maintain industrial pumps, valves, electrical motors, and the equipment seen in industrial mills.
The " signing authority " has more to do with the liability that is involved in case of a mishap, whereas a " professional engineer would use his/her stamp approving a design for which he/she is also legally responsible.
I also would like to know what the opinion is among AME's (M's), of Avionics AME's, how would you classify them, their quality of work, and particularly, when M professionals " attempt " to perform some tasks reserved for avionics, and to what extent should they be liable in signing a maintenance release, when that is the case ?
Mr. Maintenance
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Mr. Maintenance
- Rank 0
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:41 am
" i know, technically speaking, that we are not "engineers" in the classic sense of designing and building, but we are certainly more than mechanics, and I don't think I need to explain the reasons why. I believe the title came from the British, who still use it to describe personnel with signing authority. "
Hi,
I've been following your discussions about AME's, salaries, training, etc. I'd like to point out that in some countries, the word " engineer " denotes a four or five year ( depending on the country ) degree from a university, registration in a professional association of engineers upon passing an ethics exam, much like passing the bar exam for a lawyer, usually at a provincial or state level ( which requires the university degree ).
The education involves a variety of courses on subjects such as advanced calculus, thermodynamics, applied electricity and or physics, resistance of materials, thermal and stress analysis, computer programming,
professional ethics, and more.
Maintaining aeroplanes, as complex and demanding as it is, still does not involve studying the subjects described above, because obviously, they are not required for the purpose of maintenance; thus the title " Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. This title deserving, and this trade are far from being " unskilled ", and more in line with the former, and still used by some companies, title of " Stationary Engineer " ( 2nd class, or 3rd class )
by professionals who maintain industrial pumps, valves, electrical motors, and the equipment seen in industrial mills.
The " signing authority " has more to do with the liability that is involved in case of a mishap, whereas a " professional engineer would use his/her stamp approving a design for which he/she is also legally responsible.
I also would like to know what the opinion is among AME's (M's), of Avionics AME's, how would you classify them, their quality of work, and particularly, when M professionals " attempt " to perform some tasks reserved for avionics, and to what extent should they be liable in signing a maintenance release, when that is the case ?
Mr. Maintenance
Hi,
I've been following your discussions about AME's, salaries, training, etc. I'd like to point out that in some countries, the word " engineer " denotes a four or five year ( depending on the country ) degree from a university, registration in a professional association of engineers upon passing an ethics exam, much like passing the bar exam for a lawyer, usually at a provincial or state level ( which requires the university degree ).
The education involves a variety of courses on subjects such as advanced calculus, thermodynamics, applied electricity and or physics, resistance of materials, thermal and stress analysis, computer programming,
professional ethics, and more.
Maintaining aeroplanes, as complex and demanding as it is, still does not involve studying the subjects described above, because obviously, they are not required for the purpose of maintenance; thus the title " Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. This title deserving, and this trade are far from being " unskilled ", and more in line with the former, and still used by some companies, title of " Stationary Engineer " ( 2nd class, or 3rd class )
by professionals who maintain industrial pumps, valves, electrical motors, and the equipment seen in industrial mills.
The " signing authority " has more to do with the liability that is involved in case of a mishap, whereas a " professional engineer would use his/her stamp approving a design for which he/she is also legally responsible.
I also would like to know what the opinion is among AME's (M's), of Avionics AME's, how would you classify them, their quality of work, and particularly, when M professionals " attempt " to perform some tasks reserved for avionics, and to what extent should they be liable in signing a maintenance release, when that is the case ?
Mr. Maintenance
ENGINEERS VS TECHNICIAN
Mr. Maintenance
Aviation has its historical beginnings at a time when the world was fascinated with sea going ships and nautical terminology. Many of the aviation standards/terminology today have their beginning during this time. Eg: Air ships. Navigational aids, rules of right of way, navigation lighting.
It is interesting that CAMC has dropped the AME certification and now refers to aircraft Maintenance Engineers as, Aircraft Maintenance Technicians.
The following is taken from their WEB page:
Aircraft Gas Turbine Engine Repair and Overhaul Technician*
Aircraft Interior Technician
Aircraft Maintenance Technician
Aircraft Propeller Systems Technician*
Aircraft Reciprocating Engine Technician*
Aircraft Simulator Technician
Aircraft Structures Technician*
Aviation Maintenance Inspector
Aviation Electrical/Electronics/Instrument Component Technician*
Aviation Machinist*
Aviation Mechanical Component Technician*
Aviation Non-Destructive Inspection Technician*
Aviation Painter
Aviation Welding Technician*
Avionics Maintenance Technician
* These standards have been recognized by Transport Canada (Ref: Airworthiness Notice AN-C009) for personnel working in an Approved Maintenance Organization (AMO).)
Four new occupations are currently in development and will be added to our existing product base, specifically Aircraft Refueller, Aviation Ground Services Attendant, Aviation Stores Personnel and Aviation Special Processes
However, the Marine Industry is still using, Chief Engineer, Marine Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, and Marine Surveyor, terminology, and none of these individuals need a Bachelor degree in Engineering. However, they have kept the titles over the years as these are the historic titles given to the specific professions. The following web page defines each profession:
http://jobguide.thegoodguides.com.au/te ... specialise
There is growing pressure from the Professional Association of Engineers in Canada to reserve the title of "Engineer" to only those people that have a Degree in Engineering and are licensed by them. they wish to hold the "rights" to the title of "Engineer".
As long as Transport Canada continues to license Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (AME), we will continue to use the terminology, whether politically correct or not.
By the way, a Marine Surveyor and Engineer, carries out inspection and maintenance tasks, just like AMEs, however, there does not seem to be pressure to rename these professionals to, Marine Inspectors or Marine MaintenanceTechnicians.
But you never know!!
Horseman
Aviation has its historical beginnings at a time when the world was fascinated with sea going ships and nautical terminology. Many of the aviation standards/terminology today have their beginning during this time. Eg: Air ships. Navigational aids, rules of right of way, navigation lighting.
It is interesting that CAMC has dropped the AME certification and now refers to aircraft Maintenance Engineers as, Aircraft Maintenance Technicians.
The following is taken from their WEB page:
Aircraft Gas Turbine Engine Repair and Overhaul Technician*
Aircraft Interior Technician
Aircraft Maintenance Technician
Aircraft Propeller Systems Technician*
Aircraft Reciprocating Engine Technician*
Aircraft Simulator Technician
Aircraft Structures Technician*
Aviation Maintenance Inspector
Aviation Electrical/Electronics/Instrument Component Technician*
Aviation Machinist*
Aviation Mechanical Component Technician*
Aviation Non-Destructive Inspection Technician*
Aviation Painter
Aviation Welding Technician*
Avionics Maintenance Technician
* These standards have been recognized by Transport Canada (Ref: Airworthiness Notice AN-C009) for personnel working in an Approved Maintenance Organization (AMO).)
Four new occupations are currently in development and will be added to our existing product base, specifically Aircraft Refueller, Aviation Ground Services Attendant, Aviation Stores Personnel and Aviation Special Processes
However, the Marine Industry is still using, Chief Engineer, Marine Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, and Marine Surveyor, terminology, and none of these individuals need a Bachelor degree in Engineering. However, they have kept the titles over the years as these are the historic titles given to the specific professions. The following web page defines each profession:
http://jobguide.thegoodguides.com.au/te ... specialise
There is growing pressure from the Professional Association of Engineers in Canada to reserve the title of "Engineer" to only those people that have a Degree in Engineering and are licensed by them. they wish to hold the "rights" to the title of "Engineer".
As long as Transport Canada continues to license Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (AME), we will continue to use the terminology, whether politically correct or not.
By the way, a Marine Surveyor and Engineer, carries out inspection and maintenance tasks, just like AMEs, however, there does not seem to be pressure to rename these professionals to, Marine Inspectors or Marine MaintenanceTechnicians.
But you never know!!Horseman
Just for your info....I started (no experience) at $12.00/hr, now that I am licenced I make $25.00/hr. And no I am not in it for the money and I apolgize for the weary AME's remark. I just want to stop the complaining and let people know that there are other options out there. You don't have to get in debt up to your eyeballs to become an engineer. Oh, another thing, the Northern comments are just low. The north is a nice place to live. I wouldn't trade my company or the airplanes for anything. Not even an M2 licence and a lung full of smog! hahaha
Good day
I have read through all these posts, and i guess i'm one of the ones who will work on airplanes for buttons. I keep seeing posts about jobs in the northern hemisphere but where are these jobs. I just got out of school and there are not alot of jobs out there for apprentices regardless of pay or location of work. If anyone could point me in the right direction i would greatly appreciate it
I have read through all these posts, and i guess i'm one of the ones who will work on airplanes for buttons. I keep seeing posts about jobs in the northern hemisphere but where are these jobs. I just got out of school and there are not alot of jobs out there for apprentices regardless of pay or location of work. If anyone could point me in the right direction i would greatly appreciate it
Lookin for work
RWHITE - LOOKING FOR WORK
RWHITE
There are lots of jobs for the right person. Don't just send out a resume, show up with one. Aviation is a tight knit community, and you must first build a reputation, perferably a good one, one step at a time.
I know of lots of companies in Alberta that hire new apprentices each year, for rotary, but they a very particular, as they should be, of who they hire.
Take your pick of companies from the avcanada web links
http://www.avcanada.ca/links.html#maintenance
And don't expect them to pay your way out for an interview, that's just pushing the envelope a little too far.
Horseman
There are lots of jobs for the right person. Don't just send out a resume, show up with one. Aviation is a tight knit community, and you must first build a reputation, perferably a good one, one step at a time.
I know of lots of companies in Alberta that hire new apprentices each year, for rotary, but they a very particular, as they should be, of who they hire.
Take your pick of companies from the avcanada web links
http://www.avcanada.ca/links.html#maintenance
And don't expect them to pay your way out for an interview, that's just pushing the envelope a little too far.
Horseman
COLDTOES -
Coldtoes:
The traditional apprenticeship program that you completed is very rare indeed, these days. Many older AMEs in fact got their license via this route. There is certainly nothing wrong with this type of training, and in most cases is preferable for the mature student, who must keep the home fires burning (wife and Kids) while at the same time learn a new profession. I just hope that Stevenson's continues with this program, as I don't think any of the other Colleges run a similar one in Canada.
For those interested their link is below.
http://www.rrc.mb.ca/stevensonaviation/programs.htm
Unfortunately, I think the discussion got off on the wrong track, as the thread was simply discussing the starting wage for new Apprentices. $8.00 to $12.00 may be suitable for untrained staff; however, the industry is trying to attract new blood to replace the old crew that will be leaving the Industry due to age, over the next few years.
All studies completed to date, including the HRDC study, outlines that fact that Aviation is in direct competition for new students entering, other high technology fields, such as Computer Science, Mechanical Engineering, etc.
In order to attract new blood, into the Industry, starting wages must rise to at least a competitive level, with other comparable professions. (Notice I didn't say trades) Many students are picking one program of study over the other, based solely on economics. Many of these programs required the same high school entrance requirements, Math/science/marks.
Aviation Maintenance is a highly educated and skilled profession, that needs twice as many College graduates, then are currently being produced by our existing educational institutes, Page 8, of the attached report.
http://www.camc.ca/downloads/Executive%20Summary.pdf
Everyone that is in Aviation wants to see the Industry flourish, as it is in everyone’s interest. I think that the market will eventually get really tight for qualified AMEs, and basically companies will be bidding for people to work for them.
Nice thought isn't it!!!
Horseman
The traditional apprenticeship program that you completed is very rare indeed, these days. Many older AMEs in fact got their license via this route. There is certainly nothing wrong with this type of training, and in most cases is preferable for the mature student, who must keep the home fires burning (wife and Kids) while at the same time learn a new profession. I just hope that Stevenson's continues with this program, as I don't think any of the other Colleges run a similar one in Canada.
For those interested their link is below.
http://www.rrc.mb.ca/stevensonaviation/programs.htm
Unfortunately, I think the discussion got off on the wrong track, as the thread was simply discussing the starting wage for new Apprentices. $8.00 to $12.00 may be suitable for untrained staff; however, the industry is trying to attract new blood to replace the old crew that will be leaving the Industry due to age, over the next few years.
All studies completed to date, including the HRDC study, outlines that fact that Aviation is in direct competition for new students entering, other high technology fields, such as Computer Science, Mechanical Engineering, etc.
In order to attract new blood, into the Industry, starting wages must rise to at least a competitive level, with other comparable professions. (Notice I didn't say trades) Many students are picking one program of study over the other, based solely on economics. Many of these programs required the same high school entrance requirements, Math/science/marks.
Aviation Maintenance is a highly educated and skilled profession, that needs twice as many College graduates, then are currently being produced by our existing educational institutes, Page 8, of the attached report.
http://www.camc.ca/downloads/Executive%20Summary.pdf
Everyone that is in Aviation wants to see the Industry flourish, as it is in everyone’s interest. I think that the market will eventually get really tight for qualified AMEs, and basically companies will be bidding for people to work for them.
Nice thought isn't it!!!
Horseman
Valid points brought forth by all. I wish to add some of my own.
AMEs will never get the $$ we deserve until our public image is raised. Not sure how this is to be accomplished. Associations like CAMC & (local) AME associations do not seem to be doing it!
We generally work at night outta sight, we don't walk the terminal with fancy uniforms for the admiring public to see, and we aren't named as the primary cause of many of the investigated accidents, until the 1990s you didn't have to go to school to obtain a license...
A pilot landing an aircraft going through some form of emergency and saving all aboard is spectacular. The fella finding the cracked spar looking extra hard with his flashlight and mirror and saving just as many lives as the pilot is not front page news.
What would joe public think of flying on aircraft that the operator is paying minimal wage to maintain? (People generally relate the amount you’re paid to the amount of your competency.) Do they know the operators are finding the "lowest bidder"? Maybe they won't care because that keeps their fare down?
I dunno... you have all made points I agree with. I have always seen this talk but never any group action. I don't necessarily mean unions either!
The pay and treatment of AMEs is overall pretty crappy. Time to stand up boys and girls!
AMEs will never get the $$ we deserve until our public image is raised. Not sure how this is to be accomplished. Associations like CAMC & (local) AME associations do not seem to be doing it!
We generally work at night outta sight, we don't walk the terminal with fancy uniforms for the admiring public to see, and we aren't named as the primary cause of many of the investigated accidents, until the 1990s you didn't have to go to school to obtain a license...
A pilot landing an aircraft going through some form of emergency and saving all aboard is spectacular. The fella finding the cracked spar looking extra hard with his flashlight and mirror and saving just as many lives as the pilot is not front page news.
What would joe public think of flying on aircraft that the operator is paying minimal wage to maintain? (People generally relate the amount you’re paid to the amount of your competency.) Do they know the operators are finding the "lowest bidder"? Maybe they won't care because that keeps their fare down?
I dunno... you have all made points I agree with. I have always seen this talk but never any group action. I don't necessarily mean unions either!
The pay and treatment of AMEs is overall pretty crappy. Time to stand up boys and girls!
The tool
You say it's time to stand up, and I totally agree. But do you have any practical suggestiopns as to how we do this?
I worked for a company that treated it's people horrible, especially maintenance, and we almost went on strike to improve the situation. Unfortunately our little "union" (association) included all employees and once the pilots got what they wanted, the strike was thrown out, and maintenance still reamined screwed.
I left that company as quickly as I could and now am in a much better situation, but me leaving didn't do anything to improve it for the guys that remain.
So how can we improve our situation as a group? Just talking about it wont do it. Does anyone have any real suggestions?
You say it's time to stand up, and I totally agree. But do you have any practical suggestiopns as to how we do this?
I worked for a company that treated it's people horrible, especially maintenance, and we almost went on strike to improve the situation. Unfortunately our little "union" (association) included all employees and once the pilots got what they wanted, the strike was thrown out, and maintenance still reamined screwed.
I left that company as quickly as I could and now am in a much better situation, but me leaving didn't do anything to improve it for the guys that remain.
So how can we improve our situation as a group? Just talking about it wont do it. Does anyone have any real suggestions?
