Bush flying training.

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upintheair_
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by upintheair_ »

Why not just post as ., Cat Driver?

Enough with the elitism. It gets tiresome.
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Cough Syrup
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Cough Syrup »

It seems he's done lots of "bush" type flying and IFR stuff so not sure it's elitism but maybe just an opinion he has from past experiences.
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Lost Lake
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Lost Lake »

.. I am curious about you providing a PPC on a single engine float plane.

I'm interested to know what that is. Are you a TC Canada approved DFTE for single engine floats??
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

.. I am curious about you providing a PPC on a single engine float plane.

I'm interested to know what that is. Are you a TC Canada approved DFTE for single engine floats??
Good morning Lost Lake.

If you read through this thread you will find I am only involved in an advisory capacity, the course is being offered by Randy Hanna under his Charter / flight school operating certificate ...Pacific Seaplanes..

In that I do not actually give flight instruction anymore it would be best if you ask Randy about the services he offers.

. E.
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Lost Lake
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Lost Lake »

OK .. I really don't need a bush course. But if anyone in Ontario wants training, I would be more than happy to train. I have limited BC experience but I do have 6,000 hr of bush experience.

Cheers, Heard from Doc lately
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Why not just post as ., Cat Driver?
Sorry for posting under Cat Driver it was inadvertent as I was using one of my several computers that was logged in under Cat Driver from about six months ago and I had clicked post before I noticed.
Enough with the elitism. It gets tiresome.
You have me perplexed, how is posting under Cat Driver elitist?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

OK .. I really don't need a bush course. But if anyone in Ontario wants training, I would be more than happy to train. I have limited BC experience but I do have 6,000 hr of bush experience.
You should get to know Randy and Iflyforpie.

They are the guys I am involved with to set up a new type of pilot training, training done under a common structure and given by experienced working pilots.

There is a real opportunity to make a decent living in that business if some of you guys get together and sort of make it a fractional set up business.

Advanced flight training really paid off for me and I can now live the rest of my life in comfort.

Cheers, Heard from Doc lately
No I have not been posting on Avcanada for over six months and I have not heard from him either.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Meatservo
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Meatservo »

. . wrote:
There is a real opportunity to make a decent living in that business if some of you guys get together and sort of make it a fractional set up business.

Advanced flight training really paid off for me and I can now live the rest of my life in comfort.
That's pretty interesting... it makes me wonder if I have anything to offer. I have a fair whack of time as a "bush" pilot... I've even done quite a bit of training and spent some time in large jet aircraft, too. I wonder if there's a retirement gig in this idea somehow. Never thought of it. My present employer thinks I am full of shit... but I've lasted this long and never bent anything!
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Cat Driver »

Whoops...

......posted under the wrong name again....

...don't want to appear elitist. :prayer: :prayer: :prayer:
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

The idea Meatservo is for high time pilots with a history of safe flying in a given field of aviation to get together and form an association of pilots who offer advanced flight training / pilot mentoring to low time pilots wishing to upgrade their skills to make them more attractive to a potential employer by producing a certificate of competency signed by a teacher in this group.

Most employers know how to separate fact from B.S.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Meatservo »

. . wrote: Most employers know how to separate fact from B.S.
Well I guess I'd better stay away from teaching then. I'm pretty sure my employers think I'm a retard.
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peterdillon
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by peterdillon »

So glad to see someone is offering to help pilots get professional training. Best of luck. What we see at the float base with some of the new inexperienced pilots lately is downright scary. While its not the pilots fault I suspect the insurance industry will change that game shortly once they tally up what the pilot shortage is costing them. Now that new pilots aren't lined up at the dock it seems that some operators are just closing their eyes and hoping for the best or there is a lack of really experienced pilots that also "have the ability to teach." Just like learning to golf everybody is just a hacker when they start and the fastest way to learn is good teaching and practice. I don't know what the big deal is about who is called a bush pilot. Also like golf my main job so far has been staying out of the bush.
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Cat Driver »

Just like learning to golf everybody is just a hacker when they start and the fastest way to learn is good teaching and practice.
Exactly, and the sea plane ratings are about as base as training gets.

For example how many pilots get their rating without having ever landed on true glassy water? 80%?

And the solo flying really is not training, it should be scrapped and replaced with a flight test by an independent flight test examiner.

That one thing alone will make getting the rating cheaper as the school / airplane owner will not have to pay the higher insurance for solo flight.
I don't know what the big deal is about who is called a bush pilot.
It is not a big deal, however what other description is there in aviation that describes the type of flying.

There is a guy here on this thread that is confusing bush flying with flying right seat in a Navajo airport to airport IFR.

Anyhow thanks for the positive remarks Peter. :mrgreen:
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
trey kule
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by trey kule »

Actually, I kind of liked the solo part of the sea rating. Showed that the instructor teaching had enough faith in their standards to let them their student fly by themselves. Too many pilots show up with multi ratings from an FTU that, after training them, would not rent them the plane to go solo....and the poor new pilot expects their new company to allow it.
I think the same might just happen if the solo sea plane requirement was eliminated.
Examiner as a substitute..that is the FAA way...good business for examiners, but I still would like to see a trainer have enough faith in their student and training to cut them loose solo.

I agree 100% with the lack of actual glassy water experience, but practically unless time is of no consideration, the way it has been done for years seems to be working well enough. The question should be how many of those who only got glassy water simulation went on to have a glassy water accident? I cant recall any CADORS mentioning a connection.

Unfortunately, time and money are a consideration in most cases when it comes to training. unless the trainng is recognized as superior by insurers or companies hiring,I think it is going to be a tough row to hoe.

Best of luck with it though.
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Last edited by trey kule on Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I have not been involved in training in Canada for decades, when I was in the training business in Canada the multi engine flight tests were done by Transport Canada which should mean the check pilot would not have a monetary gain in doing a check ride.
Unfortunately, time and money are a consideration in most cases when it comes to training. unless the trainng is recognized as superior by insurers or companies hiring,I think it is going to be a tough row to hoe.
When I was in the advanced flight training business I had a relationship with Lloyds of London underwriters that when my clients were signed off as competent by me the client got a very attractive insurance rate.

I am now retired and have zero interest in doing any flight training and my involvement in the training program being offered by Pacific Seaplanes is giving suggestions only, I receive zero pay for any effort I put into it.

It is my way of giving back to aviation some of what aviation gave me.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by trey kule »

A noble effort.

The US has a program for sea plane training called SEAWINGS. It is similar to the FAA WINGS program which had very good results for land based aircraft. It is an award program. And I have a very nice, detailed syllabus that accompanied the copy sent me.

I too, have a great interest in training, as more and more there is an effort to substitute training for experience. While smart people know that will not work, it is still being pushed by various interests, so quality training is a key issue.

TC has published some good material, and the FAA even more. The problem has been that different entities offering float ratings were ignoring the knowledge. Canada has been blessed by allowing experienced, non instructor rated pilots to teach float flying,thus sharing wisdom and experience in a practical way. Unfortunately , more and more often we are finding flight instructors with minimal actual seaplane experience teaching it.
And this, I think is the result of a misguided approach by insurers. Years ago we could hire anyone with a CPL . Give them a float rating and they were insurable. Now,it seems the insurers want 50 hours..So the goal is to get 50 hours as cheaply as possible...And that typically means using inexperienced pilots to teach. It is a vicious circle.
I wish Randy all the best in raising the bar..Hope it works. An insurance reduction for those who graduate would be a big positive.
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Bede
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Bede »

TeePeeCreeper wrote:
upintheair_ wrote:I got my bush flying training when I got a job. Now I'm a bush pilot.

Easy, and free...
Dude! You are sitting in the right seat of a Piper Navaho in Red Lake, forgive me but you are NOT a "bushpilot"!

Unless I am misinformed....

-How many camps have you flown into?
-Do you know what a tindi ramp is?
-Have you ever "dropped" drums of fuel using only ropes?
-External loads?
-Have you ever been in command of a ski or float equipped aircraft and flown over a site where you know the people trapping/staking a claim and stopped to give them your news paper or to check that all was ok/needed anything even though your company didn't ask you too do it... You made the landing and taxied in as close to camp as you could because doing so is... "The right thing to do in the North and wanted to ensure that your fellow man was OK?"

Sir, with all due respect, you might live and operate out of YXL, but ARE NOT A TRUE "BUSHPILOT"

All the best and fly safe,
TPC

PS: If you ever have the privilege of running into J.S.G at the Lakeview, please tell him I say "hello" and call yourself "humble Navaho right seat pie" and not "a northern bushpilot"!
I love these AvCanada penis measuring contests. I say if you haven't landed on the Beaufort Sea, you're not a really bush pilot. Why do I say that? because I've done it and few others have. I therefore, am part of a much rarified breed of bush pilots :smt040

Having said that, is flying a Navajo out of gravel strips bush flying? Not a chance.
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Meatservo
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Meatservo »

But there aren't any bushes on the Beaufort sea. Unless you mean kelp? Are you a Kelp Pilot?
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Confliction »

I've landed on the Beaufort (almost hit a Beluga), but I don't think I was a "bush pilot" with my GPS and SAT phone and fancy digs back in Inuvik.

I think the title of bush pilot might have more to do with how long you serve the "bush" rather than fully about the type of flying. If someone flies a 206 or Islander or Navajo in northern Ontario for 30 years then maybe they would be close.
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Lees147
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Re: Bush flying training.

Post by Lees147 »

. . wrote:The idea Meatservo is for high time pilots with a history of safe flying in a given field of aviation to get together and form an association of pilots who offer advanced flight training / pilot mentoring to low time pilots wishing to upgrade their skills to make them more attractive to a potential employer by producing a certificate of competency signed by a teacher in this group.

Most employers know how to separate fact from B.S.
I'm not 100% sure but in other countries such as Britain aren't they trained by high time pilots right off the hop?

Canada and the US have such a great resource when it comes to flying in terms of general aviation and even the number of aviation jobs (agri/bush) but I personally think that the fact that not much more than a 200 hour pilot is good enough to train another, this somewhat worries me. I know the idea is to keep training costs down but sometimes it's better to find an old pro than a young stallion to teach you how to fly.

I am lucky that my flying instructor was a retiree rather than a young upstart.

I'm just curious are you happy with the training system in Canada and just want to see more 'advanced' courses on offer (as you are doing) or would you like everyone to get better training right from the start (which would increase flight training costs) or even both?
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