ATF Procedures

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Conforming to the pattern means not interferring with existing traffic.
We circle (visually maneuver) at 150kts. Would have a hell of a time joining a vfr circuit with six 152s and not overrunning them!

[fleet16b]

Conforming to the pattern means not interferring with existing traffic.
We circle (visually maneuver) at 150kts. Would have a hell of a time joining a vfr circuit with six 152s and not overrunning them!

Agreed
I wonder how things are done at say Collingwood which is an ATF Aerodrome.
They have everything from J3's to small Bus. Jets all arriving . Some radio equipped and some not
Bottom line is Keep your head out of the cockpit and look around frequently
Seems to work there no problem

[Sulako]

Just out of curiosity, why are NORDO and RONLY allowed? I'm likely gonna get killed for this, but I'm going to make the statement that it should be illegal in this day and age to not have COM radios and a transponder (mode C at the least) in your airplane. Joining straight in would be far less of a problem if everyone showed up on TCAS and had a radio.

[Rookie50]

Just out of curiosity, why are NORDO and RONLY allowed? I'm likely gonna get killed for this, but I'm going to make the statement that it should be illegal in this day and age to not have COM radios and a transponder (mode C at the least) in your airplane. Joining straight in would be far less of a problem if everyone showed up on TCAS and had a radio.

Gotta give this...a plus 1. NORDO into collingwood -- on a sunny Sunday?

Not a wise plan, IMO. place is a nuthouse as it is. I went in there a few weeks ago, 4 of us arriving at about the same time from different directions and 2 backtracking / waiting to take off. Add a NORDO in that? Get a handheld.....

[fleet16b]

Just out of curiosity, why are NORDO and RONLY allowed? I'm likely gonna get killed for this, but I'm going to make the statement that it should be illegal in this day and age to not have COM radios and a transponder (mode C at the least) in your airplane. Joining straight in would be far less of a problem if everyone showed up on TCAS and had a radio.

Gotta give this...a plus 1. NORDO into collingwood -- on a sunny Sunday?

Not a wise plan, IMO. place is a nuthouse as it is. I went in there a few weeks ago, 4 of us arriving at about the same time from different directions and 2 backtracking / waiting to take off. Add a NORDO in that? Get a handheld.....

Guys
Its called the freedom to fly . Uncontrolled airports are there for a reason.
Not everyone wants to yap on a radio and dick around with gadgets every time they go flying .
That's one of the reasons why NORDO airports exist
If you don't feel comfortable flying an uncontrolled Aerodrome , why would you put yourself in that situation ? That makes you the dangerous one.
There has to be accommodation for all and there is ie: Contolled and uncontrolled
The situation has worked for years without any alarming rate of incidents.
Bottom line, keep your head out of the cockpit , Its an old and golden rule of flying.

Some aircraft cannot be equipped with radios , mode c etc
If you want all that stuff that's fine but operate out of an airport that requires that.
Its pretty unfair of anyone to want to impose that on a group or facility that specifically don't want to be over controlled Uncontrolled accommodates this.

Further there are 1000's of uncontrolled aerodromes in Canada, they are called Farm Strips etc
Do you want to regulate those guys too ?
We are losing many freedoms every year with all this NIMBY crap as it is
I for one enjoy the fact that I am free to go to the airport pull out the airplane and go flying without having to speak to or ask permission of any one. Its no different than the rights that one enjoys while driving , boating etc.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Sulako, I was about to type the same thing this morning!
Nordo should be against the law...it is 2015!!!
If you can afford to operate your own flying doghouse, you can afford to buy a handheld!

[Sulako]

Flying isn't a right, it's a privilege, just like driving a car or a boat. In order to legally and safely exercise that privilege, we need to be properly trained, and our planes have to be properly equipped. I'm not saying pilots should ask permission before they go flying, and I'm not trying to umm regulate farm strips either.

I'm saying that every plane that flies should have a freakin' radio on board. Get a handheld if need be.

I don't buy the "I don't want to dick around with gadgets when I fly" argument either, considering a plane is a pretty major gadget.

Guys
Its called the freedom to fly . Uncontrolled airports are there for a reason.
Not everyone wants to yap on a radio and dick around with gadgets every time they go flying .

...

Further there are 1000's of uncontrolled aerodromes in Canada, they are called Farm Strips etc
Do you want to regulate those guys too ?
We are losing many freedoms every year with all this NIMBY crap as it is
I for one enjoy the fact that I am free to go to the airport pull out the airplane and go flying without having to speak to or ask permission of any one. Its no different than the rights that one enjoys while driving , boating etc.

[fleet16b]

Flying isn't a right, it's a privilege, just like driving a car or a boat. In order to legally and safely exercise that privilege, we need to be properly trained, and our planes have to be properly equipped. I'm not saying pilots should ask permission before they go flying, and I'm not trying to umm regulate farm strips either.

I'm saying that every plane that flies should have a freakin' radio on board. Get a handheld if need be.

I don't buy the "I don't want to dick around with gadgets when I fly" argument either, considering a plane is a pretty major gadget.

Guys
Its called the freedom to fly . Uncontrolled airports are there for a reason.
Not everyone wants to yap on a radio and dick around with gadgets every time they go flying .

...

Further there are 1000's of uncontrolled aerodromes in Canada, they are called Farm Strips etc
Do you want to regulate those guys too ?
We are losing many freedoms every year with all this NIMBY crap as it is
I for one enjoy the fact that I am free to go to the airport pull out the airplane and go flying without having to speak to or ask permission of any one. Its no different than the rights that one enjoys while driving , boating etc.

WOW.........what world do you live in? Try expanding you horizons a bit there are many avenues of aviation .......
I would expect an Aviation Forum Moderator to hopefully have a more open mind towards all aspects of the Industry
Piss poor attitude

[fleet16b]

Just out of curiosity, why are NORDO and RONLY allowed? I'm likely gonna get killed for this, but I'm going to make the statement that it should be illegal in this day and age to not have COM radios and a transponder (mode C at the least) in your airplane. Joining straight in would be far less of a problem if everyone showed up on TCAS and had a radio.

Gotta give this...a plus 1. NORDO into collingwood -- on a sunny Sunday?

Not a wise plan, IMO. place is a nuthouse as it is. I went in there a few weeks ago, 4 of us arriving at about the same time from different directions and 2 backtracking / waiting to take off. Add a NORDO in that? Get a handheld.....

Ahhhh,.... you are aware that Collingwood is a TFA Aerodrome right ????
If you feel so unsafe , why are you going there.........Technically that would poor decision making on your part

[CpnCrunch]

Sure, we should all be looking out, but when people are climbing, descending, turning in the circuit, entering/leaving the circuit, etc., it's just adding unnecessary risk not having a radio if things are busy. NORDO was fine back in the 1930s when the occasional plane landed in a farmer's field.

From what I have seen, a lot of the NORDO guys do actually have handheld radios but just choose not to use them.

I just think we should be using all the tools at our disposal to avoid midairs.

[photofly]

I think the point got lost somewhere. There are aerodromes which are (supposedly) too busy to be safe for aircraft without radios, and they have an MF area. If there are aerodromes that don't have an MF but are too busy for NORDO aircraft to be safe the correct response is to institute an MF there.

Saying you think every aircraft must have a radio is another way of saying that every single aerodrome in Canada should have an MF established. Which is rather a silly idea.

[Rookie50]

Just out of curiosity, why are NORDO and RONLY allowed? I'm likely gonna get killed for this, but I'm going to make the statement that it should be illegal in this day and age to not have COM radios and a transponder (mode C at the least) in your airplane. Joining straight in would be far less of a problem if everyone showed up on TCAS and had a radio.

Gotta give this...a plus 1. NORDO into collingwood -- on a sunny Sunday?

Not a wise plan, IMO. place is a nuthouse as it is. I went in there a few weeks ago, 4 of us arriving at about the same time from different directions and 2 backtracking / waiting to take off. Add a NORDO in that? Get a handheld.....

Ahhhh,.... you are aware that Collingwood is a TFA Aerodrome right ????
If you feel so unsafe , why are you going there.........Technically that would poor decision making on your part

I'm based at very busy UC field, this isn't about me and where I feel safe flying. That's not the issue. Issue is having some brains, drop the I'm entitled crap -- and consider a farmers field NORDO is a bit different than flying into some of the busiest UC fields out there. Get a handheld.

[fleet16b]

I think the point got lost somewhere. There are aerodromes which are (supposedly) too busy to be safe for aircraft without radios, and they have an MF area. If there are aerodromes that don't have an MF but are too busy for NORDO aircraft to be safe the correct response is to institute an MF there.

Saying you think every aircraft must have a radio is another way of saying that every single aerodrome in Canada should have an MF established. Which is rather a silly idea.

Exactly

Anyway yes its a thread about ATF circuit procedures
We all got off topic a bit

In review:

ATF Aerodromes procedures are very wide open due to CAR 602.96
with not a lot of hard and fast rules
Yes we have AIM procedures but they do not need to be applied and are at pilot discretion Kindas like a traffic circle you can enter and leave at will without any control and everyone keeps an eye out for the other guy.

[schnitzel2k3]

I think what jumbles up a lot of ATF's and MF's is the mix of IFR and VFR aircraft into a VMC airport. The IFR aircraft, especially a turboprop or jet is going to opt for a straight in stabilized approach regardless of the weather (via an RNAV of some sort or closest straight in IFR approach).

This is where I see the biggest confusion about airport procedures, but 99% of the time it works out fine because people, for the most part, communicate their intentions, some actually do it as well on 67.

Now having said that, there are IFR dominated uncontrolled airports and VFR dominated uncontrolled airports, and I think this is just something you learn from experience.

Brampton - VFR dominated / Timmins - IFR dominated. Probably don't want to be using whatever runway offers the straightest in approach going into Brampton, because you will end up with a 172 as a hood ornament.

In summary communicate, respect the environment you are entering, and as long as you aren't doing a VFR flight test - just keep it safe. And FFS, airmanship and accurate ETA's/ETE's.

Now that's assuming you can afford to have a functioning 2-way radio on-board.

S.

[LousyFisherman]

Flying isn't a right, it's a privilege, just like driving a car or a boat. In order to legally and safely exercise that privilege, we need to be properly trained, and our planes have to be properly equipped.
Snip.....
Its no different than the rights that one enjoys while driving , boating etc.

And since I have the right to drive my unmodified 1926 Model T on public thoroughfares I should have the right
to fly my unmodified J3.

IMHO
LF

[LousyFisherman]

to fly my unmodified J3.

If I had one

LF

[7ECA]

But in this day and age, when you can have a radio in your aircraft for just $200 (Icom A6), why not have it?

Sure there are places out on the Prairies where you can easily go strip to strip without ever touching controlled airspace or an MF, but why not throw in that piece of equipment for safety purposes? People get all riled up when someone flies without proper survival equipment over harsh terrain, or rant about the way passengers dress on flights, but a radio - that's just way too decadent...

[photofly]

Because a $200 ICOM transmits only 1.5W of power (if that) using AA batteries, which into the dumb rubber whip antenna doesn't transmit as far as 30 feet from inside an aircraft.

There's a reason that aircraft radios are run from a solid electrical system and through an external antenna with a ground plane or good connection to the metal aircraft body. Which you will not be able to arrange for $200.

[human garbage]

Because a $200 ICOM transmits only 1.5W of power (if that) using AA batteries, which into the dumb rubber whip antenna doesn't transmit as far as 30 feet from inside an aircraft.

There's a reason that aircraft radios are run from a solid electrical system and through an external antenna with a ground plane or good connection to the metal aircraft body. Which you will not be able to arrange for $200.

A BNC adapter ($2.95 at my local electronics place) for the radio and an external antenna works pretty nicely if you are willing to throw a bit more money at it. I had to 're-purpose' an ELT antenna to use with my handheld after a COM failure years ago. It worked so well ATC thought the boss had finally splurged on a new radio instead of a jury-rigged solution...

[photofly]

No doubt. But if you're in a wooden aircraft you'll need to install a decent-sized metal ground plane, and either way getting the relevant paperwork to cover installing a fixed antenna in a certified aircraft is going to set you back a great deal more than $200.

The point remains that buying a $200 handheld isn't the answer to everything.

[CpnCrunch]

No doubt. But if you're in a wooden aircraft you'll need to install a decent-sized metal ground plane, and either way getting the relevant paperwork to cover installing a fixed antenna in a certified aircraft is going to set you back a great deal more than $200.

The point remains that buying a $200 handheld isn't the answer to everything.

So how exactly is a wooden plane going to shield the signal from the handheld?

[photofly]

There isn't much signal to shield from something running on AA dry cells, and what signal there is is mostly thrown away by the terrible gain of the admittedly-convenient rubber whip antenna.

A decent antenna system needs a ground plane of dimension at least as big as the antenna. This is not an insurmountable problem in a wooden airplane; but the point remains that spending $200 at Aircraft Spruce isn't all it's about.

If I understood right, Sulako was also thinking the gubbermint should insist every aircraft has a transponder. I put together a battery powered transponder for someone, which worked very nicely (tx, antenna, ground plane, feed line) but you certainly can't buy one off the shelf and the transponder would be several hundred dollars if you had to buy one new.

[CpnCrunch]

Well, a 0.5W cellphone will easily transmit over 10km from within a metal cockpit. I think you'd need to have a pretty crappy 1.5W handheld to not be able to transmit within the circuit.

[photofly]

A cellphone transmits to a fixed base station on 800MHz or 2GHz - much shorter wavelength - using sophisticated digital coding. It's not really comparable to trying to get an AM-modulated voice signal heard between two handheld on VHF.

If you think that mandating that every aircraft in Canada carries a $200 handheld will mitigate conflicts at busy airfields then feel free to say so. Or perhaps we should force everyone to display their cellphone numbers on the outside of our aircraft. Then if we see another airplane in conflict we can simply telephone the pilot.

[CpnCrunch]

A cellphone transmits to a fixed base station on 800MHz or 2GHz - much shorter wavelength - using sophisticated digital coding. It's not really comparable to trying to get an AM-modulated voice signal heard between two handheld on VHF.

Well a handheld is fine for transmitting to and receiving from a plane (with an installed radio) 5 miles away. I haven't tried transmitting between two handhelds (have you?), but given that most planes have a built-in radio I can't see that being a major issue.