What actually happens in an overhaul.
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What actually happens in an overhaul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo42bgf97Ok
FYI the same thing is done today..... good deal for $25k...
FYI the same thing is done today..... good deal for $25k...
Last edited by Strega on Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
That's aviation for you. I can build a 500whp turbo car in my garage, beat on it, track it and have it not blow up but I need to drop $25k on a specialized engine overhaul for a carb'd, point'd and push rod'd engine. Makes sense.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
I don't think it makes sense for a boat to pull the kids around the lake wakeboarding should cost $100,000 either. So guess what - I choose not to buy one. Most prices are determined by the costs that go into the product and then by what the market will bear and are determined by what people will pay. If you don't like the price, contribute to the market forces and don't pay it. Eventually the sellers will lower the prices or they will go out of business, but the market determines it.
Ranting on a forum has no impact whatsoever.
Ranting on a forum has no impact whatsoever.
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
An automotive engine rebuild is worth $5 -10K easy, if not more, you know what a car doesn't do?
Fly, and endanger not only the people in it, but also the people below it, and the people that repaired it, and the people that built it, your paying for the certification of that engine; that it will not have a catastrophic failure at take off killing you, your poor buddy, and the family in the minivan on the highway at the end of airport. Your wife is in shambles; calls the lawyer; the lawyer sues the AME, who ends up in jail for 6 months for neglect, loses his license and his lively hood, as well as the engine shop gets fined $1,250,000 in damages, forcing it to shut down, and laying off 30 employees.
Car engine fails; you pull over, call the shop that screwed you, freak out on them, everyone goes home to a glass of whiskey and a Jerry Springer re-run.
Aviation is expensive; don't like it? Don't do it.
Fly, and endanger not only the people in it, but also the people below it, and the people that repaired it, and the people that built it, your paying for the certification of that engine; that it will not have a catastrophic failure at take off killing you, your poor buddy, and the family in the minivan on the highway at the end of airport. Your wife is in shambles; calls the lawyer; the lawyer sues the AME, who ends up in jail for 6 months for neglect, loses his license and his lively hood, as well as the engine shop gets fined $1,250,000 in damages, forcing it to shut down, and laying off 30 employees.
Car engine fails; you pull over, call the shop that screwed you, freak out on them, everyone goes home to a glass of whiskey and a Jerry Springer re-run.
Aviation is expensive; don't like it? Don't do it.
- Pat Richard
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
Can you provide an example of such?AME, who ends up in jail for 6 months for neglect
Again I say,, just because something is more expensive, doesnt make it better.
Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
Gotta agree with the rip-off prices, not in the AME salary (expertise is something you want when rebuilding an engine) that builds it but the parts!!! I've rebuilt a lot of engines, airplanes included and NO bloody way should anything based on 60 year old tech have any reason to be this damn expensive, certified or not! Sure the market is small, but not that small!!!
I compare this to a Harley, no way should they be that expensive either, not when I can get a Hayabusa engine that puts out 4x the HP and lasts 10 times longer with minimal maintenance...
Lycoming and Continental have us by the short hairs and they know it. Even Rotax! They have a certified engine and a non-cert one, at least they use to, anyways the non-cert one is only a few thousand less! WTF? If the certification cost is what you are paying for then we're getting hosed!!!
I compare this to a Harley, no way should they be that expensive either, not when I can get a Hayabusa engine that puts out 4x the HP and lasts 10 times longer with minimal maintenance...
Lycoming and Continental have us by the short hairs and they know it. Even Rotax! They have a certified engine and a non-cert one, at least they use to, anyways the non-cert one is only a few thousand less! WTF? If the certification cost is what you are paying for then we're getting hosed!!!
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
I've been to the Rotax factory. There is absolutely no difference between the certified engines and non certified. It's all about paperwork and assumption of liability.Taiser wrote: Even Rotax! They have a certified engine and a non-cert one, at least they use to, anyways the non-cert one is only a few thousand less! WTF? If the certification cost is what you are paying for then we're getting hosed!!!
Regards,
TPC
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
Paperwork - that's the difference! Certification was requested, costs incurred, and upon demonstration, certification issued.There is absolutely no difference between the certified engines and non certified. It's all about paperwork
Like it or not, if you want to put an engine in a certified aircraft, the engine must be certified - it's in the design requirements. If you want the engine certified, it must be designed to comply, and then subjected to witnessed testing. Qualified people have to do the paperwork to provide the certification. Without the certified engine the certified plane will not fly.
Happily, in Canada, we have several alternatives to "certified" for aircraft. Feel free to follow them, you can have every bit the same quality......
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
We are both saying the same thing. Except in most cases when coming from the manufacture (Rotax in my illustrated example) the uncertified final product is the same of the certified one!PilotDAR wrote:Paperwork - that's the difference! Certification was requested, costs incurred, and upon demonstration, certification issued.There is absolutely no difference between the certified engines and non certified. It's all about paperwork
Like it or not, if you want to put an engine in a certified aircraft, the engine must be certified - it's in the design requirements. If you want the engine certified, it must be designed to comply, and then subjected to witnessed testing. Qualified people have to do the paperwork to provide the certification. Without the certified engine the certified plane will not fly.
Happily, in Canada, we have several alternatives to "certified" for aircraft. Feel free to follow them, you can have every bit the same quality......
TPC
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
Well, except for not being certified, which can be a vital difference if your application requires a certified engine. It's kinda like maintenance, lots of people could turn a wrench on a plane, but many fewer can certify their work. Do you need the certification....? When I buy some materials, they are identical, off the same bulk roll - certified or not. If I want certification, I pay a fee just for that, zero change to what i bought, other than I can use it in a certified application.the uncertified final product is the same of the certified one!
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
You know, the more you try to describe the benefits of certification, the more it sounds like nothing more than a make-$$$ scheme for people like yourself who make a living in the certification business
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
Yeah, probably similar to a flying school being a money making scheme for people who want to train pilots.... You have your good months, and your not so good months!the more it sounds like nothing more than a make-$$$ scheme for people like yourself who make a living in the certification business
Except wait!... People can choose to fly legitimate, non certified aircraft if they like, and avoid all those certification costs entirely! Often I help people find that way.
Hmmm, legitimate, non licensed pilots.... I wonder....
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
I can promise you that the people who do the training are not the ones making the money. The fuel vendor and the AMEs involved: guaranteed. The owner? Possibly. The people doing the training? Nuh-uh.PilotDAR wrote:Yeah, probably similar to a flying school being a money making scheme for people who want to train pilots.... You have your good months, and your not so good months!
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
Yeah the ames involved fixing training aircraft are on the path to early retirement.photofly wrote:I can promise you that the people who do the training are not the ones making the money. The fuel vendor and the AMEs involved: guaranteed. The owner? Possibly. The people doing the training? Nuh-uh.PilotDAR wrote:Yeah, probably similar to a flying school being a money making scheme for people who want to train pilots.... You have your good months, and your not so good months!
Rolls eyes.
The median income for an m1 licensed a me working on training aircraft barely breaks 30 dollars an hour. Most m1 guys I know working on that small shit land in the mid high twenties.
Yup. Making money hand over fist.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
Is it that high? Would surprise me if it was. Where does one find such stats?DonutHole wrote:The median income for an m1 licensed a me working on training aircraft barely breaks 30 dollars an hour.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
I pulled it out of my ass. It happens to be the bracket I'm in so I'm observationally curious and ask around. My group of peers is about 100 people and the guy who is really pulling it in is making 35 an hour. Everybody else I talk to is in around the 22/27 an hour range... incidentally this is about the going rate for an acad m2 fw guy. That being said. I took into account that most flight schools have 1 Dom an engineer and maybe an apprentice. In that situation the Dom wage brings up the average.GyvAir wrote:Is it that high? Would surprise me if it was. Where does one find such stats?DonutHole wrote:The median income for an m1 licensed a me working on training aircraft barely breaks 30 dollars an hour.
There's only on group making big money in ame land. Medium/heavy helicopter guys can (and do) make 100k a year but they pay for it in lifestyle. .. and they have to deal with helicopters so I'm not sure if it's even worth it.
Last edited by DonutHole on Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
As little as it is, it's still a lot more than most instructors.DonutHole wrote:[
Yup. Making money hand over fist.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
That's bullshit. Ive worked at a few ftus. Per hour they make from 18 to 40 an hour depending on class. But most I knew were making about the same as I was, per hour flown.photofly wrote:As little as it is, it's still a lot more than most instructors.DonutHole wrote:[
Yup. Making money hand over fist.
The difference is, an ame can fix a toilet so you can pay him to stick around for 8 hours a day even if the planes are all serviceable.
Per hour we make about the same. If Ames had 8 hours of fixing a day and instructors had 8 hours of flying our t4s would pretty much be a wash.
Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.
But instructors don't have 8 hours of flying per day. And you can still fix planes when the weather's bad.DonutHole wrote: If Ames had 8 hours of fixing a day and instructors had 8 hours of flying our t4s would pretty much be a wash.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.