This happened last summer and at local aviation event. I was going to post at the time but decided that I would wait several months and see if I was still upset. Well, its several months later and I'm still pissed!
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So I'm standing there getting my as$ chewed out by Transport Canada. Some strange guy comes up and has the nerve to interrupt us, explain that he is a pilot then proceeds to elaborate on what I did wrong.
The fact that the TC inspector(s) saw what happened and was IN THE PROCESS of discussing the violation with me didn't matter.
Being kind of busy with my conversation with TC, I was not able to address him directly and he walked off when we ignored him.
So, to THIS guy (just in case he is on avcanada) ...you are a whiny little b*tch and a complete a-hole. Also if you see somebody in middle of being disciplined by a TC inspector, watch if you must, but consider just shutting the f*ck up and be thankful it isn't you.
To everybody else here, if you happen to know this guy, please pass the message on for me. Thank you.
I offered to fly in my helicopter and put it up on static display for the event. The airspace was notamed closed at 4pm and they asked me to be there around 2pm.
I got there just after 2pm and was probably shutting down by ~2:05. I was talking to and got marshaled in by the organizers. I had flown over a show line which was a violation once the public was let in...which they did at 2pm, but I didn't know that.
If they had told me I HAD to be on the ground by 2pm, I would have gotten there earlier. Nevertheless, I was PIC and ultimately it was my responsibility. TC was kind and let me off with a warning. Lesson learned, I'll be more careful next time.
I thoroughly recommend anger management class's if you are going to hang around airports
One of the exercises that our Anger manager taught was to count to ten before you say anything.
Then: Imagine yourself in a lovely green forest in the mountains, filled with singing birds flying around the sunbeams and filling the area with joyand happiness. Feel the cold mountain stream water and the bubbles of air brushing gently up your arm as you hold the whiny ahole under the water and his last breath runs up your arm.
I'm a little unclear about exactly which regulation you violated. The airspace wasn't closed until 4pm, but you landed just after 2. I thought the "show line" was just for the aerobatics, which isn't what you were doing.
Was the issue that you were landing somewhere that wasn't an airport and there were people milling about in the vicinity?
Was this Rocky Mountain House ?
To be clear I was not the guy you are mad at, but I was there. If you are bringing a helicopter to an air show expect to have to move the helicopter after you land it in a safe area. (Bring your ground handling wheels). Fixed wings are often required to shut down and push to the static area because no props are to be turning when manoeuvring past a certain point. Powered taxiing in a fixed wing would certainly not be allowed down a closed taxiway filled with general public spectators. The helicopter I am thinking of hover taxied down a closed taxiway, over the general public spectators and landed in the static display area full of general public, tents and other aircraft. I appreciate that helicopters are capable of landing pretty much anywhere. I am also a little tired of holding down my air plane because helicopters can land anywhere. As for the transport chew out I think you earned it. I have been chewed out lots, its how people learn. As for the guy who chimed in during your chew out? Transport may have thought the public shaming was enough and decided not to fine you. Glad to hear you didn't get a fine. Next time bring your ground handling wheels and remember the people marshalling at air shows are volunteers and often have little aviation experience. They have tried to marshal me into apron edge lights, Taxiway lights and gopher holes.
Its all just part of the experience. See you next season.
If this is not the incident in question then let me know and i will pull my post.
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I imagine Glenn didn't realise the taxiway was closed. Perhaps he should have realised, but you could also say that there probably should have been a NOTAM or ATIS message, or someone on the radio to warn pilots.
Not sure I'm an unreserved fan of this phrase. Probably it's on a few dispatchers desks at shady operations to dissuade their young pilots from complaining when told to complete Vfr flights in zero zero. Seems to endorse adding pressure.
CpnCrunch wrote:I imagine Glenn didn't realise the taxiway was closed. Perhaps he should have realised, but you could also say that there probably should have been a NOTAM or ATIS message, or someone on the radio to warn pilots.
CpnCrunch,
No I didn't. But I was having a very active discussion with someone on the ground on where to park. The airport was NOTAM'd closed for 4PM (2 hours later) and the public had just been let in, but I didn't know that. Nevertheless, the responsibility was mine.
The TC inspector did not say I did anything unsafe. In that case, I would likely not have gotten off with a warning. I was told that the specific violation was under CARS Section VI (Airshow) which came into effect just before I landed. Under CARS Section VI, the minimum distance for t/o or landing from the spectators area is 500' (and hover taxi to 200'). It was acknoweldged that I would not necessarily be aware of these regulations as they are not covered under the PPL or CPL syllabus.
Again lesson learned, I will arrive a LOT earlier next time.
Not sure I'm an unreserved fan of this phrase. Probably it's on a few dispatchers desks at shady operations to dissuade their young pilots from complaining when told to complete Vfr flights in zero zero. Seems to endorse adding pressure.
I was at that show too. There was more than just one guy ready to tell you what you did wrong at that air show. There was at least 5 other pilots standing in line willing to contribute to the discussion, but they figured TC had it handled. I stood back and watched for a while, you actually got off pretty easy when only one of the locals confronted you when the rest stood by glaring at you "wielding pitchforks".
From the angle I witnessed the spectacular landing, hats were blown off people, tents had to be held down, little kids were rubbing debris from their eyes, displays were blown over, and debris were blown onto some nicely polished show cars.
What I have learned in my short time on this earth, is that most (but not all) helicopter pilots, even instructors, don't seem to realize they are happily protected by noise cancelling hearing protection and a cozy bubble canopy while flying in the epicenter of a violent hurricane of destruction to any and all items outside the cockpit within a 60 foot minimum radius (depending on aircraft size/weight it can get a lot bigger).
Focusing like a laser on the landing location, pilots rarely look in the rear view mirror to see the havoc they have wreaked. Once in a while a pilot gets punched out for nearly killing someone and the pilot doesn't even know that anything happened.
I would suggest bringing ground handling wheels, or arriving at airshows EXTRA early if you want to display your helicopter, this gives you enough time to seek out and erect some stanchions to keep the ice cream lickers from using your tail skid as a chin up bar. (this also happened at the same air show, different helicopter)
And yes, I agree with Hoptowit, never rely on airshow volunteers for anything related to flying...
AuxBatOn wrote:Where was the Airboss? If people were on-site, the airboss should have been on the radio.
I'm pretty sure they were (TC was listening as well), I thought it was the initial person I spoke who then handed me over to the marsheler. I had landed further back and had a discussion on where I should park. I actually couldn't see where they wanted me to park until I was on top of it and had been relying on the marsheler to make sure that the area was clear. It was complicated by the fact that they had me first put down in 2-3" of water/mud. Anybody on the frequency could have stopped me.
I was wrong (never said I wasn't) the responsibility was ultimately mine. Hopefully others can learn from my mistakes. My apologies to all that were there (except of course the person who intervened while I was talking TC ).
Glenn
To Sigh: I had offered to come in earlier, even the day before. They asked me to be there at 2pm.
sigh wrote:I was at that show too. There was more than just one guy ready to tell you what you did wrong at that air show. There was at least 5 other pilots standing in line willing to contribute to the discussion, but they figured TC had it handled. I stood back and watched for a while, you actually got off pretty easy when only one of the locals confronted you when the rest stood by glaring at you "wielding pitchforks".
From the angle I witnessed the spectacular landing, hats were blown off people, tents had to be held down, little kids were rubbing debris from their eyes, displays were blown over, and debris were blown onto some nicely polished show cars.
What I have learned in my short time on this earth, is that most (but not all) helicopter pilots, even instructors, don't seem to realize they are happily protected by noise cancelling hearing protection and a cozy bubble canopy while flying in the epicenter of a violent hurricane of destruction to any and all items outside the cockpit within a 60 foot minimum radius (depending on aircraft size/weight it can get a lot bigger).
Focusing like a laser on the landing location, pilots rarely look in the rear view mirror to see the havoc they have wreaked. Once in a while a pilot gets punched out for nearly killing someone and the pilot doesn't even know that anything happened.
OK, now we are starting to get the real facts. Exactly how close to the crowd was the flying/landing and with what type of helicopter.
I have no particular knowledge of this event, and do not seek to present any opinion about it here. However, I have witnessed the excitement experienced by ground based airshow "staff" upon the arrival of aircraft, particularly helicopters. I have witnessed a marshalled helicopter cause considerable damage to parked airplanes.
My witnessing that one event (and it could easily have been my plane, were I had parking differently) I am now very aware of this. I once had to land a helicopter in between two other parked helicopters. Their blades were unrestrained. I simply held off and hovered for a number of minutes, until the people responsible for those helicopters realized why I would not approach and land. They finally restrained the blades, and I landed on the pad.
From what I read, C-GKNT has owned up to the situation, and taken responsibility unreservedly. That is an important thing for me. All the rest of us can review the situation in our minds, and we can consider the value of owning up, and taking responsibility. I've honestly seen a number of fixed wing pilots prop blast too, so let's not stand too proud against the helicopter pilots here - we're all moving air, and have to be careful about it!
pelmet wrote:
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OK, now we are starting to get the real facts. Exactly how close to the crowd was the flying/landing and with what type of helicopter.
This makes it sound like I just flew with no regard directly into a large crowded area. After this all happened, I made friends with one of the volunteers "B" who was there on the ground. Sigh is corrected that as pilots we can become focused on the task at hand so I just checked with B to see what he remembered.
B told me that there were 4-5 volunteers keeping people back several hundred feet away. The people closest to where I landed were the TC inspectors, B and another volunteer. B also witnessed most of the conversation between the TC inspectors before I landed and between us after I landed. The violation was because there can be no aircraft movement under power behind the show-line once the public was let in (5 minutes before this all happened). TC was in the best position to observe what happened and they (kindly) let me off with a warning.
I am well aware that rotorwash/noise can cover a large area...for that I apologize to anybody that was there.
PilotDAR wrote:I have no particular knowledge of this event, and do not seek to present any opinion about it here. However, I have witnessed the excitement experienced by ground based airshow "staff" upon the arrival of aircraft, particularly helicopters. I have witnessed a marshalled helicopter cause considerable damage to parked airplanes.
My witnessing that one event (and it could easily have been my plane, were I had parking differently) I am now very aware of this. I once had to land a helicopter in between two other parked helicopters. Their blades were unrestrained. I simply held off and hovered for a number of minutes, until the people responsible for those helicopters realized why I would not approach and land. They finally restrained the blades, and I landed on the pad.
From what I read, C-GKNT has owned up to the situation, and taken responsibility unreservedly. That is an important thing for me. All the rest of us can review the situation in our minds, and we can consider the value of owning up, and taking responsibility. I've honestly seen a number of fixed wing pilots prop blast too, so let's not stand too proud against the helicopter pilots here - we're all moving air, and have to be careful about it!
C-GKNT wrote: I actually couldn't see where they wanted me to park until I was on top of it and had been relying on the marsheler to make sure that the area was clear. It was complicated by the fact that they had me first put down in 2-3" of water/mud.
I forgot about that part. After landing once in a spot you didn't like you got airborne again and moved over. I remember the people with tents and airplanes less than 60 feet away were extra impressed. I know its a pain, but land on the ramp in the clear, shut the machine down (what ever it is) go for a walk and have a look. Airshows are always organised chaos. Even if you get there the day before you may not be able to hover taxi or taxi under power where you want to be due to tents, or temporary structures or whatever.
PilotDAR wrote:From what I read, C-GKNT has owned up to the situation, and taken responsibility unreservedly. That is an important thing for me. All the rest of us can review the situation in our minds, and we can consider the value of owning up, and taking responsibility. I've honestly seen a number of fixed wing pilots prop blast too, so let's not stand too proud against the helicopter pilots here - we're all moving air, and have to be careful about it!
I could not agree more I have blasted people and gotten chewed for it and deservedly so. My concern is the way the thread was started.
C-GKNT wrote:So, to THIS guy (just in case he is on avcanada) ...you are a whiny little b*tch and a complete a-hole. Also if you see somebody in middle of being disciplined by a TC inspector, watch if you must, but consider just shutting the f*ck up and be thankful it isn't you.
Situations like this is a bitter pill sometimes and I have had to live through them myself. However, I noticed the posts that followed were very quick to call the third man in a whiner and evoking visions of strangling him. What he did may not have been tactful, he may not have realised that you were talking to Transport Canada. We as pilots need to talk to each other more. If transport was not around and another pilot came to talk to you about the incident would he still be a whiney bi@ch? As a younger pilot I got talked to lots. I was an a tad arrogant, but the fact that they pissed me off didn't make what I did any more right.
What you experienced was a little old school social justice. So after a few months you decided you would post on Avcanada and apply some social justice of your own by explaining less than half of what went on and everyone piled on the other guy. The OP is still pushing criticism from other pilots away.
C-GKNT wrote: My apologies to all that were there (except of course the person who intervened while I was talking TC ).
We as pilots should not be afraid to go talk to another pilot when we feel they could have handled something better. It is how we learn. If this was me I would have chalked it up to experience, and only spoke of it when regaling a young pilot who had just had his ass chewed out to make him realize it happens to everybody. So take it for what it is, a learning experience. Now put it behind you and go punch a hole in the sky. It will make you feel better.
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People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
C-GKNT wrote:
I am well aware that rotorwash/noise can cover a large area...for that I apologize to anybody that was there.
Glenn
OK, it is good to be sorry. Many years ago I did a run up pointed toward an open hangar and someone came on the Unicom frequency to give me heck. And rightly so.
So when you state this...
C-GKNT wrote: Some strange guy comes up and has the nerve to interrupt us, explain that he is a pilot then proceeds to elaborate on what I did wrong.
The fact that the TC inspector(s) saw what happened and was IN THE PROCESS of discussing the violation with me didn't matter.
Being kind of busy with my conversation with TC, I was not able to address him directly and he walked off when we ignored him.
So, to THIS guy (just in case he is on avcanada) ...you are a whiny little b*tch and a complete a-hole. Also if you see somebody in middle of being disciplined by a TC inspector, watch if you must, but consider just shutting the f*ck up and be thankful it isn't you.
To everybody else here, if you happen to know this guy, please pass the message on for me. Thank you.
and then we find out this.
sigh wrote: little kids were rubbing debris from their eyes, displays were blown over, and debris were blown onto some nicely polished show cars.
You might understand a possible reason somebody thinks you are the one who is a "complete a-hole". He may be a pilot with a nicely polished car or brought his little kid to the show. Somebody thought the same of me many years back and I now always look behind me prior to a run up even when I know there can't be anyone around.
Anyways...interesting to dig into the depths of an incident from various points of view including the regulatory and take note of trying to avoid in the future.
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Last edited by pelmet on Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
The issue with helicopter pilots is, as someone already pointed out, they get target fixated when they see a suitable landing area. And , of course , there are the very few who simply think its cool to fly close over everyone, to make a grand entrance. It doesn't take to many of these types to make people around airports generalize about the motivation of a pilot's honest error. I have the feeling from the OP's posts that he wont ever be at the controls again for this type of incident. End of the story for me.
We all make mistakes, and I think the original issue posted was with regard to someone who decided to get in on the shaming. I agree with the OP. That person is a jerk. It kind of drifted to an analysis of the whole incident.
I recall not to many years ago a couple of young pilots in the north who decided to do a very extended runup in a king air on the concrete pad absolutely beating up a plane behind them waiting to taxi onto the pad (competitor's plane). They were finally told to stop by the CARS operator who noticed the indident and them laughing in the cockpit. But they are not typical either and I dont think anyone generalizes fixed wings pilots behavior from these types.
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In my early days, I was occasionally too focused on the task to notice the effect I was having on surrounding aircraft/people/objects etc. I was fairly, and deservedly "told" by people more wise than I at the time. I learned to apologize, then better, I learned that with a bit of preplanning, there are often options which can greatly reduce the affect we have on others. That said, there remains a tiny fraction of responsibility of people around airports to recognize that air could be moving, and to account for it (tie planes down, control lock on, leave your shiny car in the parking lot, and shield your kids eyes. If you go to the game, the puck or ball might be coming at you, the airport environment is not that different. There's a balance - but the majority of it falls to the pilot.
At a fly in years back, I witnessed an AS 350 helicopter being marshalled to the intended "parking" spot on the main apron (so as to make the event look more prominent, I expect). As it hover taxied, it blew four unrestrained 150/152's around and into each other and a 172, resulting in bent rudders, ailerons and dents here and there. I believe that five aircraft were left damaged, three no longer flyable. Yes, the planes should have been at the very least chocked. The marshaller should have known much better, but the helicopter pilot, as trusting as he was, caused the damage. He knows how much air he's moving. An unfortunate event all the way around. I have no idea who had to pay for what, but morally, this was not just one person's responsibility....
As for "advice" from other pilots, and allowing it to sink in to be a better pilot yourself... a thread drift story...
When I learned to fly at Brampton in the mid '70's, there were these little blue business card sized cards "around" which said in essence "I saw you do something that did not look all that good, and I'm kindly letting you know I saw it, just to be a good person". If I ever received one, I did not retain it. I have no recollection of ever presenting one, as I doubt I felt I have the seniority around there to assert myself. That was then...
A few years back, I was there, in the company of two Transport Canada Inspectors, in my professional role, assessing an aircraft. During our day, we walked back across the apron toward the hangars after lunch. The runway in use was 15 (and for those not familiar, that means we were walking north across the apron, while the aircraft were landing toward the south, a few hundred yards east of us. Mid way along our walk, one of the club planes I recognized cut east to west across the active, and the apron, right over our heads at 100 feet or so, cutting off landing aircraft in the process. I was alarmed by this poor airmanship. So I asked my TC colleagues, if they "spoke" to pilots after witnessing such flying. They hesitated, saying no, as they were not air carrier inspectors. So I thought of the little blue card of decades earlier (wishing I now had one), and said I would go and speak to the pilot when they landed. They smiled and encouraged me.
So after a few more circuits, the plane parks, and I'm standing at the tail. As the door opens, I ask to speak to the pilot in charge (two were aboard). An instructor climbs out, and asks if I'm his next student - "Ah, no". "I just stopped by to say that I saw the unusual crossing a few minutes back, and it did not look that good from where I stood." Well, I got an ear full of defense and excuse about practice forced approach and he was an instructor an so forth. I reiterated: "Well, when I learned to fly here back in the '70's, we'd let each other know if something did not look that good from the ground, and that did not look that good." More back talk.... "Well.... it did not look that good to me, nor to the two Transport Canada inspectors standing over there (as I point to them watching me talk to him) who also saw it.
Silence...... and I walked back to my work of the afternoon.
Hey pilots, we're all in this together. Much of the population at large is less than eager about what we do, so we have look after each other, 'cause they won't. Let's give each other the better advice when we can, and let's receive it graciously when we should.....
...you are a whiny little b*tch and a complete a-hole. Also if you see somebody in middle of being disciplined by a TC inspector, watch if you must, but consider just shutting the f*ck up and be thankful it isn't you.
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