Buffalo Joe temporary shut down?

[jspitfire]

But to make blanket statements that new = good, old = bad is just...stupid.

To take a comment out of context and inject a blanket statement like that is not just stupid, it's short sighted. If you think that a piston powered DC-3 is a good airplane to utilize in ANY airline application anywhere in the world these days, I seriously question your sanity. Do you also suggest using Model Ts as taxis? How about typewriters to print letters? Sorry but when it comes to airline operations today, DC-3-stupid. L1011=stupid. C-46=stupid. And recently, HS748=stupid.

An operator could easily set up shop in Yellowknife with a few 1900's and 1 or 2 BT67's and take over all of BJoe's flying. It would be a hard slog for the first few years I think it would be feasible

So continuing down this line of thought, anyone operating a piston Beaver these days is stupid because they haven't upgraded to a DHC2T or something else newer? How can a shiny new turbine engine possibly be the deciding factor on whether one airline vs another makes money. Is the DC3 a top choice? no. But when properly maintained and operated I see no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to use them.

Buffalo hasn't been shut down because they use old aircraft, it's the way they operate them. Because we don't know specifics yet I'll use an example: an overloaded Dash-8 vs an overloaded DC3 vs an overloaded 1900 or whatever makes no difference, it deserves the same punishment from Transport.

[Eric Janson]

But....if you operate WWII relics that are restricted by weather...

What weather restrictions would that be?

These aircraft can be operated IFR just like any other multi -engine aircraft.

[goingnowherefast]

Temperature. Turbines keep on going when piston guys are facing all kinds of issues, or have just stopped flying.

[co-joe]

As long as Joe sticks with vintage piston pounders he has no competition. As soon as he modernises he's in the ring toe to toe with Tindi and Sunwest and the competition will be fierce. I doubt his business model would survive that competition.

[Eric Janson]

Temperature. Turbines keep on going when piston guys are facing all kinds of issues, or have just stopped flying.

When I flew vintage piston aircraft we didn't have a temperature cut off for flights.

[jspitfire]

Temperature. Turbines keep on going when piston guys are facing all kinds of issues, or have just stopped flying.

When I flew vintage piston aircraft we didn't have a temperature cut off for flights.

Buffalo's temperature cutoff is -40 I believe. Doesn't happen too many days of the year, and colder than that in YZF you're often grounded due to ice fog anyways. Jazz also grounds their RJs at -40.

[goingnowherefast]

-40, hell -25, with a piston, you are messing around with engine tents, cranky engines not starting, etc. Lost productivity because of all the time you are spending nursing the engines trying to warm them up and keep them warm. Yes it's clearly do-able. Just a lot easier and faster with a turbine.

-40 and outside all night unplugged, a PT6 will start. I've reluctantly done it before. It's the minimum oil temp for start.
Jazz might not take-off at -40 ground temp, but those engines work flawlessly at -55 and FL370. I'm betting that limitation is more based on metal strength in the airframe and/or landing gear than the engines.

Buffalo may have stopped flying at -40, but when does Kenn Borek stop flying?

What about thick icing layers? A pressurized turbine will blast right up through it and be sitting in sunshine at FL250. An unpressurized piston would be pounding along in icing at 9000' and in all reality probably never went flying.

[Rockie]

Jazz also grounds their RJs at -40.

Most likely a manufacturers limitation rather than a company one.

[rigpiggy]

More likely it was the coldest temp they could find during the certification process.

[Flying Low]

More likely it was the coldest temp they could find during the certification process.

When I worked at Jazz we were told that was the limit because that was the lowest temperature start demonstrated during testing.

[snoopy]

Talk about off topic! At issue here isn't WHAT Joe is operating, it is HOW he is operating.

Joe may be kind of a jerk, however he is a business person who has run that business for an awful long time. It's kind of funny the number of people on here who seem to think they know better how to run his business for him. I'm pretty sure Joe doesn't waste his time on here, but if he did, I can hazard a pretty good guess at the colour of his face, and the language coming out of his mouth in response to the experts' assessment of his business choices.

As an FYI, and Air Tanker operations aside, Joe hauls mostly freight in highly specialized heavy lift/STOL short-haul aircraft. Not only does the freight not care how loud/slow and drafty the aircraft is, it's a bit of a stretch to compare this kind of operation with another operating Toronto - Dubai long haul passenger flights in completely different equipment. Kind of like comparing a farm tractor with a cruise ship.

As long as the equipment is properly maintained, legally operated within the Airworthiness standards, applicable CARS, manufacturer's specs etc. etc., and with due regard to safety, it doesn't matter what equipment is operated. Supply and demand as well as how the business is managed will dictate the success, failure and longevity of said business.

Actually Model T's in a taxi service could be quite a good business as a niche market in the right area and with the right marketing.

Again, at issue here isn't WHAT Joe is operating, it is HOW he is operating. This isn't his first run-in with TC and I doubt it will be the last - the type of equipment has no bearing on that and at his age I seriously doubt Joe's going to change his personality any time soon.

Hopefully Joe's TC issues will get sorted out and hopefully some better and more proactive oversight from TC will result in less problems in the future. As crusty and nefarious as Joe is, he's still an interesting character and part of the Northern heritage in ZF/HY. Anyone else wouldn't have survived this long.

Cheers,
snoopy

[Donald]

This:

Talk about off topic! At issue here isn't WHAT Joe is operating, it is HOW he is operating.

+ this:

As long as the equipment is properly maintained, legally operated within the Airworthiness standards, applicable CARS, manufacturer's specs etc. etc., and with due regard to safety,

= suspension of OC

[rolly117]

Talk about off topic! At issue here isn't WHAT Joe is operating, it is HOW he is operating.

Joe may be kind of a jerk, however he is a business person who has run that business for an awful long time. It's kind of funny the number of people on here who seem to think they know better how to run his business for him. I'm pretty sure Joe doesn't waste his time on here, but if he did, I can hazard a pretty good guess at the colour of his face, and the language coming out of his mouth in response to the experts' assessment of his business choices.

As an FYI, and Air Tanker operations aside, Joe hauls mostly freight in highly specialized heavy lift/STOL short-haul aircraft. Not only does the freight not care how loud/slow and drafty the aircraft is, it's a bit of a stretch to compare this kind of operation with another operating Toronto - Dubai long haul passenger flights in completely different equipment. Kind of like comparing a farm tractor with a cruise ship.

As long as the equipment is properly maintained, legally operated within the Airworthiness standards, applicable CARS, manufacturer's specs etc. etc., and with due regard to safety, it doesn't matter what equipment is operated. Supply and demand as well as how the business is managed will dictate the success, failure and longevity of said business.

Actually Model T's in a taxi service could be quite a good business as a niche market in the right area and with the right marketing.

Again, at issue here isn't WHAT Joe is operating, it is HOW he is operating. This isn't his first run-in with TC and I doubt it will be the last - the type of equipment has no bearing on that and at his age I seriously doubt Joe's going to change his personality any time soon.

Hopefully Joe's TC issues will get sorted out and hopefully some better and more proactive oversight from TC will result in less problems in the future. As crusty and nefarious as Joe is, he's still an interesting character and part of the Northern heritage in ZF/HY. Anyone else wouldn't have survived this long.

Cheers,
snoopy

[rolly117]

well said snoopy and i have known joe since 1994 and he is the one that gets thing done no matter what !

[anofly]

I surely hope we see Buffalo doing "sched" and cargo ,again very soon. Repeat after Red Green..
" I am a man,,,,, I can change..... If I have to" or similar

[NunavutPA-12]

Joe McBryan isn't the only one who has had difficult times with TC; Willy Laserich and Max Ward, to name just two others.

This past summer Buffalo started a monthly cargo run from YZF to YCB and YCO. Freight rates were MUCH cheaper than 5T and 7F and Buffalo took a lot of freight business from those two carriers. I wonder if there's a connection to recent events.

[fish4life]

You can be cheaper when your running over weight airplanes

[NunavutPA-12]

You can also be cheaper when you don't have to deal with all the safety issues that surround a passenger-carrying or combi operation and when you don't have to adhere to the strict schedules that passengers demand. It also helps to have paid-off equipment.

[Jean-Pierre]

He just got greedy. If he did legal load he still could be very competitive and win many contract. He had to have little extra though. Then when your plane fall out of the sky after an engine failure two time it become pretty obvious. Meanwhile laid off Canadian North pilot are at home watching it on Discovery channel and going wtf.

[skymarc]

Joe is not saving anything running these antique aircraft.
Its most of the time cheaper doing the payments to run good equipment than paying all the repairs that these old pistons planes are bringing.
There are lots of good used turbine aircraft around that can do the jobs cheaper and more reliably.

[True North]

Joe is not saving anything running these antique aircraft.
Its most of the time cheaper doing the payments to run good equipment than paying all the repairs that these old pistons planes are bringing.
There are lots of good used turbine aircraft around that can do the jobs cheaper and more reliably.

All you -experts- should get together, buy a few good used turbine aircraft and go show Joe how it's supposed to be done. Sounds pretty easy.

[Jean-Pierre]

Joe is not saving anything running these antique aircraft.
Its most of the time cheaper doing the payments to run good equipment than paying all the repairs that these old pistons planes are bringing.
There are lots of good used turbine aircraft around that can do the jobs cheaper and more reliably.

All you -experts- should get together, buy a few good used turbine aircraft and go show Joe how it's supposed to be done. Sounds pretty easy.

Agree. Anyone that makes a statement like that doesn't know the cost of running modern turbine aircraft.

[sstocker31]

Personally, I like to see Joe run around with the 3 & c46, and I wish he would use the DC4 again.....I love watching the old piston pounders go, they still get the job done.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it guys....

[toelessjoe]

Personally, I like to see Joe run around with the 3 & c46, and I wish he would use the DC4 again.....I love watching the old piston pounders go, they still get the job done.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it guys....

What he said.

- Toeless.

[NunavutPA-12]

I don't pretend to any expertise in the running of an airline.

The point of my last post is that Buffalo has found a niche market in hauling only freight, with the exception of the YZF to YHY run. They can haul freight at lower cost because they don't also have to haul around people. That's not Joe's fault. If the other companies choose to operate more-expensive combi flights on strict schedules that's their choice. Freight doesn't care if the airplane is 70-years old and the customer only cares about the amount at the bottom of the waybill.