downsizing jets for downsizing $$$$$$$

[Blastor]

WestJet downsizing jets while upsizing service

CALGARY -

WestJet Airlines Ltd. rolled out the first of its new smaller jets on Thursday, part of the airline's move to adjust capacity on some routes and open new markets.

Nothing to do with slumping Stocks...............of course

WestJet Airlines WJA-T Last Trade:Aug 12, 2005 11:21 EST
Last: C$ 11.490 Net Change: C$ -0.170 % Change: -1.46%

[grammar boy]

Sorta like AC with the EMBs?

Get a life Fran.

[tonysoprano]

IMHO it doesn't have anything to do with stocks. The reality of higher fuel prices has forced both AC and WJ to look for more efficient aircraft. The problem for WJ as I see it is that on the same route the EMB will still be cheaper to operate than the -600. The problem for AC is of course the higher labour costs. In the end, the apples are still competing with the oranges but it doesn't seem to matter because customers are buying both. For now.

[ivanhoe]

Tony

Your assumption is incorrect. The higher the fuel price , the more AC will have to charge each passenger to make up for it because of the EMB's lower capacity. The other option is to leave the ticket price the same and suck up the reduced or dissapearing margin.

[EI-EIO]

Not downsizing at all, considering the 736 are replacing the 732, not 737/738.

Just because a journo says it doesn't make it true Blastor

[tonysoprano]

Ivan.
Sounds like we can go around in circles with our different assumptions. Suffice it to say that the EMB 190 is not much smaller than the -600 and besides no matter how you spin it the EMB's are still cheaper to operate. If we were using anA319/20 on that route, we are now charging the higher price using a much more fuel efficient aircraft. Your assumption that we have to charge more to make up for the lack of seats doesn't hold any water. Everything is relative.

[Canus Chinookus]

I'd love to see your numbers to back up what you're sayng, Tony.

[Trevor]

The -600s are smaller than the -200s by 6 seats. As was mentioned, they're not replacing -700s or -800s but the -200s. Capacity barely changes. But the fuel burn between the -200 and -600 means fuel savings.

As for the price of stocks having anything to do with these planes coming on line, they were ordered last year. Not even you're newspapers could see the stock prices (or oil prices) change back then Blastor - try again.

[tonysoprano]

Canus. Unfortunately I don't have the numbers. Nor do I want to make the effort. It's just not that important to me. Maybe they would prove me wrong. I'm only going by what most analysts have said recently. In a nutshell, they claimed that there is a distinct advantage that AC would have over WJ with these EMB's over the 737's in terms of cost per mile on the same routes. But I do admit this was said prior to the arrival of your -600. I can also tell you that AC's decision to buy these things was directly aimed at competing with WJ, They were purchased at a time when oil was no where near what it is now. The decision was simply based on a per mile basis at the cost of fuel at that time. Like I said earlier, it's all relative. If we begin by having a cheaper aircraft, it follows that it will maintain it's advantage as the price of fuel goes up relative to the cost of the 737(big one). I really don't think it's rocket science if you can prove the numbers. Sorry I can't.
Trevor. I fully agree re the stock price. That too is not rocket science.

[Canus Chinookus]

All I'm saying is it'll have to wait to see AC's numbers when the EMB's are actually flying in the real world... same for the 600, so I'll reserve judgement til then. But, if we're talking opinions, I'd be placing my bet on the 600 being very, very close to the operating margins of the EMB if not a little better, but, like i said, we'll have to wait and see.

[tonysoprano]

Yep. Either way, I'll bet the two aircraft will perform well for what they were meant to do. Our fearless leaders have the numbers and are convinced these are the right machines.

[grammar boy]

One advantage the -600 has for WJ is fleet commonality.

By Christmas, every pilot at WJ will be checked out to fly every aircraft at WJ. Same sims, same training programs, SOPs, manuals etc. All the parts in stores will fit on any aircraft in the fleet (well, okay, the -800 has a slightly different A/C system, oh, and a tail skid, so a few special parts). The engines can even be swapped from an -800 to a -700 to a -600 (with de-rating).

The EMB is a totally foreign (pun intended) aircraft to anything that Air Canada is operating. New training programs, SOPs, manuals, sims, single type-ratings, parts, the list goes on...

I think this is a big factor in WJs decision to stick with the 737NGs. These facts alone must tilt the scales toward the -600, as it applies to WJ...

[DA900]

Is there any talk of getting 900's or will they wait and see how the 800's perform first?

[Canus Chinookus]

All I know is never say never at Westjet...

[tonysoprano]

Grammar Boy.
Good point on commonality. We were almost sure AC would get the A318 for the same reasons. But in the end they chose the Emb stating that they would still be cheaper to operate. Can't really figure that one out, but then again I'm not a bean counter, just a bean eater, eh.

[grammar boy]

Tony: Yeah, that order surprised a bunch of people, especially splitting the RJs between the SkiDoo and the JungleJet... Politics at its finest...

Cheers (what, no beer mug smiley available?!?!)

edit for pre-coffee typo

[tonysoprano]

.......

[grammar boy]

nice hat...

[Schlem]

Grammar Boy.
Good point on commonality. We were almost sure AC would get the A318 for the same reasons. But in the end they chose the Emb stating that they would still be cheaper to operate. Can't really figure that one out, but then again I'm not a bean counter, just a bean eater, eh.

It all comes down to who offers the best kickbacks to AC management for placing the big order...

Looks like Brazil had the biggest cheque this time!

[tonysoprano]

Schlem.
I'm not a big fan of my boss RM, but don't forget that he ordered just as many Bombardiers as he did Emb's. Try and keep it intelligent eh.

[b767jetmec]

The EMB is a totally foreign (pun intended) aircraft to anything that Air Canada is operating. New training programs, SOPs, manuals, sims, single type-ratings, parts, the list goes on...

Let`s not forget that the 2 tyoes, 175/190 have different engines, so no interchangeablility.

[Jaques Strappe]

The Emb will fill niche markets. Boston is a great example. Too many pax for the RJ so we end up leaving people behind. Put an airbus on it and now you have empty seats. This is where the Emb will excel and do it for a lot less than a 318.

Fleet commonality is a wonderful thing but you are still limited with route flexibility, not to mention an entire shutdown of the operation with a crippling AD or something.

What are the differences in these 737 models?

[195psi]

Seating capacity and engine thrust rating. The -800 has a tail skid but that's it. Engines and avionics are basically all the same. The main wheels and brakes are diffrent on the -800 as well but the 600/700 are the same. It is very handy.

[Jaques Strappe]

Are the wings and fuselage the same?

[Typhoon pilot]

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737fam ... nical.html

Site should give spec's for the 600 through the 900.
To answer your question is short wing span 112'7'' without winglets fuse lenght 600= 102'6'' 700=110'4'' 800=129'6''. The engines are interchangeable however are derated between variants 600=22.7k 700=24.2k and the 800 29k (approx)