PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

[cdnpilot77]

Well, one tool transport Canada has given you, if you feel there is an issue, is SMS. How many of you have actually ever filed a report instead of just bitching about the lack of services in the north or whatever? People learn about SMS on day 1 of company indoc and seem to forget about it until something happens. It is there for proactive, preventative measures also, not just reactive post incident to save your ass with a non-punitive report. I know so many pilots hate being proactive because it involves some modicum of effort, but it's a tool at your disposal, use it!

File a report and put the onus on the company to, at the very least, acknowledge the report. Make a paper trail for the day you refuse to go.

[Oldshoes]

SMS was another way for T.C. to distance themselves from liability but in a way it's like asking drivers to police themselves on the highway.

The Caravan, if flown inside it's flight envelope is a fine machine. If this aircraft was in flight conditions not suitable for a 208 and it's not common company practice then just what was the position of those who were aware it was launched? Alternately, if this behaviour was normal company practice then those in positions of responsibility must be held accountable. If there is truth that two machines launched then the latter possibility becomes more plausible. Either way the company's safety culture must be in question.

Another very sad situation that will be devastating to the pilot's family and friends.

[rigpiggy]

Well considering that I know of 2 instances where an sms=pink slip, I call Bovine Excrement

[pelmet]

I don't see any evidence that ice was involved here. The aircraft turned back, and we're assuming it was due to ice. No calls were made. (If I were iced up and having problems, I'd be calling somebody) This makes me think he was simply .. running (it was 300 OVC at his destination...I was 15 miles away at YTL) back home. Hitting Tarp Hill has been done before while .. running. Ice build up bringing the aircraft down on the hill seems unlikely. I think the ground just "rose" up on him. There very likely "could" have been ice; the coincidence of the ice build up, and Tarp Hill happening at the same time, a bit much.
Illya

So now that it is admitted that nobody on this forum knows what happened, are those that were calling for, at this time, prosecution of somebody....perhaps anybody who may be in a management position still of that opinion?

[C-gwxv]

A few snap shots for your information

[Illya Kuryakin]

I don't see any evidence that ice was involved here. The aircraft turned back, and we're assuming it was due to ice. No calls were made. (If I were iced up and having problems, I'd be calling somebody) This makes me think he was simply .. running (it was 300 OVC at his destination...I was 15 miles away at YTL) back home. Hitting Tarp Hill has been done before while .. running. Ice build up bringing the aircraft down on the hill seems unlikely. I think the ground just "rose" up on him. There very likely "could" have been ice; the coincidence of the ice build up, and Tarp Hill happening at the same time, a bit much.
Illya

So now that it is admitted that nobody on this forum knows what happened, are those that were calling for, at this time, prosecution of somebody....perhaps anybody who may be in a management position still of that opinion?

Well, there was very low ceilings and crappy vis. He hit the only high piece of real estate in the area, so while it's true nobody knows if there was ice involved, the only person calling for prosecution deleted his post. We do (those of us who actually fly in the area) have a pretty good idea of what happened here. I'm sure you have something to contribute?!
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

C-gwxv, thanks for all the pretty pictures. I would never have bothered looking at them. I'd see YTL was 300 OVC, and had been all morning, hopped in my car and gone for breakfast.
Illya

You see, I'm a simple guy. I suscribe to the KISS principal. It's, we can go, or we can't. 300 OVC is a can't. It really IS that simple.

[cdnpilot77]

Well considering that I know of 2 instances where an sms=pink slip, I call Bovine Excrement

Then that's a company you don't want to work for anyways and it would be just as well to get fired than work for a company who would push you over the edge. There's usually more to the story than simply an SMS report = pink slip. I know of one company that you are speaking of and I would not want to work for them!

[Cat Driver]

the only person calling for prosecution deleted his post.

Yes I did as it was written in frustration that another young person died under circumstances that with proper company over site may ave been prevented.

The accountable executive / 's had no idea what was going on.

The operations manager had no idea what was going on.

The chief pilot had no idea what was going on.

The only one accountable is dead.

Sorry I made such a uncalled for post.

[Illya Kuryakin]

SMS. Wasn't Keystone the poster child for SMS? SMS is a CYAWP! Folks I (we, 77) know generated something like 17 pages of SMS reports over the "check engine" light on the company pickup truck! Then, they changed the oil.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

the only person calling for prosecution deleted his post.

Yes I did as it was written in frustration that another young person died under circumstances that with proper company over site may ave been prevented.

The accountable executive / 's had no idea what was going on.

The operations manager had no idea what was going on.

The chief pilot had no idea what was going on.

The only one accountable is dead.

Sorry I made such a uncalled for post.

And I didn't disagree with you. It may need to go that way to stop this crap. Just laying the charge would stir it up. It's needed.
Miss you old friend.
Illya

[Cat Driver]

I am aware you do not disagree with me Illya I do not post here much any more because regardless of what one says it usually ends up in a no win pissing match.

However nothing in aviation gets me more disgusted than young people getting killed under circumstances that with proper over site of the day to day operations might still be alive.

It is my personal belief that given enough documentation of inadequate over site and the possibility of a intimidating company culture the public would get a far better picture of how this industry is regulated if we brought it into a public court of law where lawyers could examine those under oath to answer exactly what they knew and when and why nothing was done to prevent the accident from happening.

I do not believe that the pilot is the only one responsible for safety in aviation.

I have watched this same repeated loss of life for over sixty years and am despondent that as time passes nothing changes.

Anyhow I have expressed my feelings and I do not apologize for stating them.

[Jean-Pierre]

The GFA show "LCL FZDZ" almost every day. If you stay on the ground for that you won't fly much from October to January. It's not a very useful decision making tool lately. Launching with that 300' ceiling though is surprising. I can only guess they call the customer and they say 'yeah it's great here' like they always do when they want their stuff.

Don't know why everyone feel they need their own thread for the same incident btw. I guess they don't share soap box.

Edit: After reading the YTL TAF I think they were betting those Tempo would happen. What useless forecast. It just say 'bad weather with tempo decent weather' for the entire day. I notice many TAFs like this these day. I think Navcanada funding might be an issue or something. Forecasts like this aren't helpful and are borderline bait to go give it a try.

[awitzke]

No it does not, Jean-Pierre.

[Illya Kuryakin]

The GFA show "LCL FZDZ" almost every day. If you stay on the ground for that you won't fly much from October to January. It's not a very useful decision making tool lately. Launching with that 300' ceiling though is surprising. I can only guess they call the customer and they say 'yeah it's great here' like they always do when they want their stuff.

Don't know why everyone feel they need their own thread for the same incident btw. I guess they don't share soap box.

Edit: After reading the YTL TAF I think they were betting those Tempo would happen. What useless forecast. It just say 'bad weather with tempo decent weather' for the entire day. I notice many TAFs like this these day. I think Navcanada funding might be an issue or something. Forecasts like this aren't helpful and are borderline bait to go give it a try.

If you think that was bait n go, on a Caravan VFR, have at it. The keys are in the ignition. Their own 1900 was missing YTL, 15 miles away.
Illya.

[Jean-Pierre]

Well obviously at least 2 Caravan pilot went for it.

[digits_]

If you think that was bait n go, on a Caravan VFR, have at it. The keys are in the ignition. Their own 1900 was missing YTL, 15 miles away.
Illya.

Do caravans with keys for the ignition exist ?

[pelmet]

the only person calling for prosecution deleted his post.

Yes I did as it was written in frustration that another young person died under circumstances that with proper company over site may ave been prevented.

The accountable executive / 's had no idea what was going on.

The operations manager had no idea what was going on.

The chief pilot had no idea what was going on.

The only one accountable is dead.

Sorry I made such a uncalled for post.

And I didn't disagree with you. It may need to go that way to stop this crap. Just laying the charge would stir it up. It's needed.
Miss you old friend.
Illya

So . admits that he was wrong to want to press charges against people without any evidence(and I respect someone admitting an error) after you stated that he was the only one who had done so and in response....now you want to do the same.

I suggest we charge Ilya with dangerous flying endangering the public. According to the first post on this thread, by admission, he departed the same day with a a 300 overcast ceiling when minimums were 401 feet stating that he had a 50% chance of getting in and he did get in. Obviously he must have busted minimums which is very dangerous. He even states "Long story short, we got in. But, just."

What does that prove...he is dangerous based on the evidence. TC needs to press charges, maybe even the criminal justice system. Jail would be appropriate I say.

And please Ilya, do not explain to us how you got in when the weather was below minimums. Don't tell us the long story. I absolutely don't want to have any more evidence than you have in your call for charges to be laid against persons of that other company. You are guilty of dangerous flying and providing any evidence to the contrary is unimportant. It will stir things up for other dangerous pilots doing similar as you do.

[awitzke]

Weather is dynamic and changes by the minute. I've landed in YRL at 200bkn before... why? Because I saw the runway above mins. The metar or forecast is not the end all, what you see at the time of the approach matters. Just because the weather is showing below mins and an aircraft landed, doesn't mean they busted below. Their clients probably wanted to take the risk of missing. I've gotten the field up here numerous times leveled off at mins when the weather showed below.

/offtopic

[timel]

Weather is dynamic and changes by the minute. I've landed in YRL at 200bkn before... why? Because I saw the runway above mins. The metar or forecast is not the end all, what you see at the time of the approach matters. Just because the weather is showing below mins and an aircraft landed, doesn't mean they busted below. Their clients probably wanted to take the risk of missing. I've gotten the field up here numerous times leveled off at mins when the weather showed below.

/offtopic

Yes, it is the client call or the company call, if they wanted us to try, we didn't mind going, worst scenario is we would come back or land elsewhere and wait.

[pelmet]

Weather is dynamic and changes by the minute. I've landed in YRL at 200bkn before... why? Because I saw the runway above mins. The metar or forecast is not the end all, what you see at the time of the approach matters. Just because the weather is showing below mins and an aircraft landed, doesn't mean they busted below. Their clients probably wanted to take the risk of missing. I've gotten the field up here numerous times leveled off at mins when the weather showed below.

Thanks, but I am only using his method of determining guilt. He must be. I am not interested in evidence or common sense.

[awitzke]

Yeah I kinda figured that but wasn't sure. Hard to determine ones tone and context online.

[fish4life]

The GFA show "LCL FZDZ" almost every day. If you stay on the ground for that you won't fly much from October to January. It's not a very useful decision making tool lately. Launching with that 300' ceiling though is surprising. I can only guess they call the customer and they say 'yeah it's great here' like they always do when they want their stuff.

Don't know why everyone feel they need their own thread for the same incident btw. I guess they don't share soap box.

Edit: After reading the YTL TAF I think they were betting those Tempo would happen. What useless forecast. It just say 'bad weather with tempo decent weather' for the entire day. I notice many TAFs like this these day. I think Navcanada funding might be an issue or something. Forecasts like this aren't helpful and are borderline bait to go give it a try.

That's not the pilots problem, if a company operates somewhere that has that much FZDZ around maybe they need to re-evaluate the type of aircraft they use. You know what would happen if pilots never went when icing conditions were present with Caravans ? I bet more twin turbo props would show up. If you go one province to the west companies operating into almost the same type of places move almost all the freight with ATR's and Metro's. On top of that it is on IFR flight plans and fuel loads most of the time. I've flown into NW Ontario and for some reason the culture of VFR in IMC or VFR in MVFR (less than 3 miles and 1000') seems to be much more prevalent, why are people so against going IFR? Probably because that's how it's always been done or the equipment (caravans) favours it. Why is it 705 aircraft have a 1000' VFR minimum? Because at the end of the day less than 1000 turns into 500 or less in some places and before you know it we have another CFIT accident because guys pushed it again since IFR fuel eats into too much payload. I've also flown lots of days where it's 800 OVC but 15+ miles of vis underneath and I don't have a problem with that its really the lower vis days coupled with lower ceilings that's unsafe. Ask yourself if the visibility is too bad to be able to navigate VFR with a map only (no GPS) ? If it is then you should probably go IFR and not rely on your GPS to get you to your destination because that's how guys end up in bad situations.

[MIQ]

I want to agree with fish4life. I did not want to find myself speculating since we still have very little information about this accident however it becomes increasingly difficult to stay out of it. These accidents are very tragic in my opinion because they are very avoidable and yet they keep happening here over and over again pretty much every winter. I'm tired of hearing about young (and sometimes old) pilots lose their lives up north in icing and/or IFR conditions flying around VFR in airplanes that are not meant to be operated that way.
In my opinion all that really matters is the following: 5SM -SN OVC003
You can say whatever you want, icing equipped or not, this is not weather to fly around on a VFR flight. I've read about the OPS SPEC that Wasaya appears to have but still, in what world is 300AGL VFR weather? Looking at the METAR the weather has gone as low as 1 3/4SM within the past two hours with the ceilings remaining at 003. I just don't see how an aircraft can be dispatched on a VFR flight in those conditions. Heck many IFR approaches don't even take you down to that level.
I just hope that the industry will actually soon learn from these tragic accidents and make a change to their procedures, rules and regulations. There's a reason why 'official' VFR limits are the way they are so how about we just stick to them? Regardless of what aircraft you fly, if you are carrying cargo or passengers, and what province you fly out of? If companies want to fly their planes in IFR conditions (even if the flight is conducted in VMC) then how about you just follow IFR regulations with all the bells and whistles involved?
I know we don't know yet what happened but I dare to say that this accident would not have happened had the weather been actual VFR...

[digits_]

I just hope that the industry will actually soon learn from these tragic accidents and make a change to their procedures, rules and regulations. There's a reason why 'official' VFR limits are the way they are so how about we just stick to them?

Official VFR you could fly in 2 SM OVC001 in uncontrolled airspace https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... e-3669.htm