Fair wages

[sunk]

What are wages in the north?
C185
Dhc2
Vfr twin
Ifr Navajo
With crew house
Without crew house

[goingnowherefast]

C185 $2500/month (w/ crew house)
Dhc2 $4000/month (w/ crew house)
Vfr twin no idea, aren't many around
Ifr Navajo FO: $2500/month Capt: $3000-4000/month SP-IFR $4000-5000/month (w/out crew house)

Varies slightly by region.

[awitzke]

Pretty much bang on for Ho FO.

[AWOS]

$2500/month for a Ho FO would probably be the high end.

[awitzke]

Skycare is $2000/mo until PCC'd then $2500/mo.

I make 30k/yr now, still in the right seat until later in the new year.

[Taxivasion]

C185 $2500/month (w/ crew house)
Dhc2 $4000/month (w/ crew house)
Vfr twin no idea, aren't many around
Ifr Navajo FO: $2500/month Capt: $3000-4000/month SP-IFR $4000-5000/month (w/out crew house)

Varies slightly by region.

Those are all very high end in my experiences. Sad but true.

[180]

The 185 and Beaver wages were exactly what I was getting paid in NW Ontario and SK in early 2000. ($2500 and $4000 respectively with accommodation.)
The only part that's sad but true is that they're probably pretty accurate for 2015 too.

[Panama Jack]

Good God.

No wonder aviation isn't an attractive looking career.

[awitzke]

C185 $2500/month (w/ crew house)
Dhc2 $4000/month (w/ crew house)
Vfr twin no idea, aren't many around
Ifr Navajo FO: $2500/month Capt: $3000-4000/month SP-IFR $4000-5000/month (w/out crew house)

Varies slightly by region.

Those are all very high end in my experiences. Sad but true.

Based on my pay, the captains here and pilots I work with who have flown 185's and Beavers (and said what they made) I'd say it's actually pretty bang on.

[Meatservo]

That's actually considerably more than in 1990. Owning a house now, and making around $10,000 a month (ish), makes me wonder if there wouldn't be more in my pocket at the end of the day if I made $4000/month and wasn't paying for the house! The only difference is a nicer house that doesn't have other pilots living in it, I guess! When I was a young man I thought living with the other pilots was a bonus! It was fun most of the time. Now I live with a woman, who is a lot pickier about things than my buddies were; sometimes I don't feel like I've made any progress at all.

If you have the good fortune of working for an air service that puts their ships on skis in the winter, $4000 a month to fly a Beaver and live rent-free in a crew house might actually be pretty good. Waaay better than having to find your own place to live in a city so you can sit in the right seat of one of those jet things, slowly starving to death as the glowing screens, automatic controls and monotonous view out the window gradually erodes your will to live.

Horses for courses, I guess. Doesn't seem too bad to me. I guess the trick would be if you could get a raise once you moved out of the crew house. Maybe I'm out of touch with the reality of being a young person these days. We didn't have to pay for things like those cell-phones that receive "texting" or "tweeter" or whatever you young fellas seems so obsessed with these days. And we could actually listen to music for entertainment back then, which is pretty cheap. The music young people listen to today, which leaves your souls empty, no wonder you have to have your noses stuck in those phone-things all the time and are always taking pictures of yourselves- you're probably bored stiff. When I was a young buck we made our own fun. Flying, boasting about flying, hanging around outside, building fires and shelters and docks out of trees when we weren't bombing around the woods in our radial-engine-powered aeroplanes, playing music and drinking beer- that's the life for a young man. $4000 a month and a free place to crash sounds perfect to me!

[SherpaT]

I think the quoted wages are on the lower side or maybe median for float drivers these days. Not sure about IFR stuff. I consider myself to have gotten lucky, However 185 starting was 3200 first year "American Plan" - room and meals included which was bumped up the second year. And on the Beaver with a place to live starting was 4500. Experienced float pilots are becoming harder to find and I don't think anyone experienced on a Dash 2 should be working for less than 5000 a month housing included. Even at these "higher rates" you do not want to calculate what your hourly wage is working seasonally! One other major thing to consider in a float job is tips, different outfitters attract different clients and some jobs you can make quite a bit in tax free American over the course of a summer. Good luck and don't sell yourself or the rest of us short!

[CPLMike89]

Been at the same 703 operator just over 4 years now all single-pilot VFR on wheels NWO and Manitoba:

Year 1:C-206 $3000/month laid off Jan/Feb, Housing included.
Year 2:C-208 $4300/month year round employment, Housing included.
Year 3:C-208/PA-31 $5000/month, year round employment, Housing included.
Year 4:C-208/PA-31 $5500/month, year round employment, Bought a house but option still there for crew house, Group benefits.
Year 5:C-208/PA-31/C-206/B-95 $5850/month, year round employment, crew house still available, Group benefits.

Your experience may differ*

[goingnowherefast]

I guess the trick would be if you could get a raise once you moved out of the crew house.

Tried that when my last employer decided that crew housing wasn't going to be provided anymore. It was a very definite, insulting and slightly backhanded "NO". That attitude is part of the reason they are not my current employer.

[Meatservo]

I guess the trick would be if you could get a raise once you moved out of the crew house.

Tried that when my last employer decided that crew housing wasn't going to be provided anymore. It was a very definite, insulting and slightly backhanded "NO". That attitude is part of the reason they are not my current employer.

Yeah. For me it would be pretty much THE reason. I wouldn't even give notice. Well, it would be whatever notice I received that I was moving out of the crew house. This is tantamount to a reduction in pay. if you reduce my pay, you may expect a concomitant reduction in the quantity of service I provide. I'll do us both a favour and move on.

[esp803]

Define "North",

Northern Ontario, my first job on floats (7hrs on em), I was making 2k a month flying a 206, with housing provided, had meals provided about half the time, and lived in a place where there was nothing to do, so I banked a surprising amount of money (that was 7 years ago)

A few years ago I was making a little over 9k a month, flying a 185, food and housing provided. That season I also flew the DHC2 and Caravan. The following Season I flew the 185, DHC2, DHC3 and C208 for about the same arrangement, but was home more often just from how the schedule worked out.

I'm not sure about the Navajo, but Caravans are (or should be) in roughly the same boat, IFR on them in Manitoba was about 5k a month (60k a year, but paid bi-weekly) for winter contract work. Up north it varied with the amount of flying, but anywhere from 5k to about 15k a month, no housing or food provided.

I'd target 10% of revenue generate from the airplane as a good ballpark for a "fair wage" in the bush.

A 185, at 5.00 a mile, doine 100mph and a 450hr season: 225,000 revenue for the season, 22,500 wage for 5 months, a little over 4k,

Beaver: 8.00 a mile, 100mph, 450hr season: 360,000 revenue, 36k wage for 5 months: 7k a month.

For an otter: 11.00 a mile, 120mph, 450hr season: 594,000 revenue, 60k wage for 5 months, or 12k a month.

And no, I do not think those are unreasonable expectations.

E

[goingnowherefast]

I guess the trick would be if you could get a raise once you moved out of the crew house.

Tried that when my last employer decided that crew housing wasn't going to be provided anymore. It was a very definite, insulting and slightly backhanded "NO". That attitude is part of the reason they are not my current employer.

Yeah. For me it would be pretty much THE reason. I wouldn't even give notice. Well, it would be whatever notice I received that I was moving out of the crew house. This is tantamount to a reduction in pay. if you reduce my pay, you may expect a concomitant reduction in the quantity of service I provide. I'll do us both a favour and move on.

Problem being I was low time, and he was taking advantage of the fact that it would be difficult to find another flying job. (~500 hours, and had a 1-2 month old PCC on the flagship aircraft).

I considered the reduction in pay as voiding any agreement between me and my employer to stay for the validity of my PCC. ($800/month rent is quite a hit on $2500/month salary). Started job searching shortly after. You change the terms of a hand shake agreement, and in a less than civil manner, that voids the agreement. If I can't trust my employer to keep his word, I'll go work for one I can trust.


esp803, I don't think those numbers are unreasonable, but unfortunately they are unrealistic. Based on your math, I see real world salaries being typically 5% to 7% of the revenue generated in the single pilot world. In the 703 2-crew world, both pilots split about 7-9% of revenue generated.

This is, of course, dependent on competition. In a fiercely competitive area, salaries will be a higher percentage of revenue, despite having a lower dollar value. Opposite is true if you are the only shop in town (no direct competition).

Employers will pay as little as they can to attract the type and experience of pilot they are looking for. They'll pay low timers less, pay cuts, treat them like crap, because it's likely the only job offer available. Funny part is they often end up with a revolving door of pilots, and much higher training costs. If an employer wants pilots with more experience and more credibility, they will offer higher salaries, good schedule, per diems, book nicer hotels, etc.

[esp803]

Employers will pay as little as they can to attract the type and experience of pilot they are looking for

The guys you want to work for don't, trust me.

E

[goingnowherefast]

They might add a little extra to keep you there and happy. At the end of the day, it's still a business that needs to generate revenue and can't do that if they offer you the moon.

Are there any King Air pilots in Canada making 250 grand a year? I doubt it, because you can attract and keep a top notch King Air pilot for far less.

They might be willing to pay 100k for a King Air captain, but I bet that captain has 5000+ hours, knows the limits, and doesn't push them. Knows and respects weather, fuel, maintenance, CRM, aircraft/avionics capabilities, the list goes on. He/she will be a lot safer than the 1500hr captain who accepted his first command job for 50 grand, and is just starting to find his limits in a 270kt pressurized turbine twin with 9 guys in the back.

The jobs you want are all filled by highly experienced pilots, because that's who the employer wants and is willing to pay for.

[fish4life]

I think most float companies that pay well make up the difference in lower insurance costs most of the time. I heard insurance at your average commercial float operator with average to lower experience is 10% of the aircraft value per year. If you can get a high time guy to lower that to even 5% and you can easily pay him for it.

[goingnowherefast]

The insurance numbers I've been privy to in the past disagree with that statement. However, some bent tin since then will have definitely changed said numbers.

[rigpiggy]

1. in 1998 I made 3k+.20/sm, as a pa31 driver. flew my bag off made over 75k...... do the inflationary numbers and tell me what it would be now
2. primary corporate driver now on a king air 96k, lots of time off... insurance quote for this year dropped to 8500$

[goingnowherefast]

My example was from a float company. Laid off some of the most experienced guys in the fall, and almost everybody was flying a bigger plane the next spring. Insurance policy is written so as long as minimum experience is met, it doesn't matter who's flying the airplanes. rates are the same.

The Otter pilot that got paid 10 grand is gone.
Replaced by the Beaver pilot who went from $5000 to $7000.
Now the 185 pilot is flying the Beaver for $4000 and loves his pay raise from $3000.
The dock hand is happy to be flying for his second season at $2500


rigpiggy, where is this? I'd love to get paid $105 000 a year.

[complexintentions]

More people than jobs is not exactly an aviation-only phenomenon. Dismissing folks as "whores" for doing what it takes to obtain/keep a job isn't really constructive or accurate. Welcome to globalization. There are millions (billions?) of people who would love to work. For anything. Anywhere.

Unfortunately the pressure will only increase as there are ever-more people. Best thing you can do to protect yourself and get a living wage, (which is not the same thing as a "fair" wage, which is subjective) - is to obtain the experience to ensure there are more jobs requiring that rarer experience than there are people with it.

At the lower ends of experience, there has never been a shortage. Never will be.

[Rookie50]

More people than jobs is not exactly an aviation-only phenomenon. Dismissing folks as "whores" for doing what it takes to obtain/keep a job isn't really constructive or accurate. Welcome to globalization. There are millions (billions?) of people who would love to work. For anything. Anywhere.

Unfortunately the pressure will only increase as there are ever-more people. Best thing you can do to protect yourself and get a living wage, (which is not the same thing as a "fair" wage, which is subjective) - is to obtain the experience to ensure there are more jobs requiring that rarer experience than there are people with it.

At the lower ends of experience, there has never been a shortage. Never will be.

Lot of wisdom here. Like it or not, working in a commodity industry means pay relevant to that. Best advice is to specialize and bring added value.

Being a business owner in an unrelated industry -- a hard working choice I made 18 years back to have the (sucessful) chance at financial security and personal freedom -- although mixed with extremely hard work, stress and study -- Im hesitant to see the employer side as "evil".

Transportation industry is brutally competitive -- don't know any airplane business owners but am good friends with a fellow owning 5 -6 big rig trucks in a small company. Good, fair guy, but brutal undercutting and skinny margins. He has zero pricing power. He's surviving, I wouldn't call it thriving. He, and I suspect aircraft charter co's, are what I call "price takers".

I used to be in sales, from big customers it was the same. They would set their price and exact terms they expected service at. It was take it or leave it.

In my business, and this is applicable career advice, (I hope) , I've survived -- thrived -- because I've been willing to continually reinvent myself, create added value. Do what most aren't willing to do.

[AWOS]

Aaah, 'tis the season where relatives I haven't seen in years ask the good ol' "how's work?" small-talk question. "Pilots must go through so much training. The pay is probably pretty good, eh?", they speculate. Complaining reminds me too much of work so I usually just respond with the shrug and "y'know" combo. My pay was probably great back in the 90's when they determined the figure. Unfortunately, as cost of living consistently increases, pilot wages seem to stay the same.

It'd be interesting to get some data from TC on how many fresh CPL tickets they've printed over the past few years. I wouldn't be surprised if there has been a gradual reduction. Seems like a lot of kids these days drop out after they get their first ground job while working on their CPL - I can't really blame them. While a shortage may never happen, it'd be nice if we could see a bit more of a balance in the future.