Checking Tach

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ahramin
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by ahramin »

That's what I thought. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt, assume that you can differentiate between piston and turbine engines, and tactfully not mention which one I said RC Allen didn't make and which one your link is for. Are you going to quote maintenance material on how to check any mechanical drag cup type tachometers that says how to check it?

As for your brain being on holiday, we'd sort of come to the conclusion around here that that was a permanent situation :).
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cgzro
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by cgzro »

stubborn to get it
I'll go with evidence over hand waving any day but thats just me.

Now if you wanted to offer constructive arguments you could argue about what happens with the component's temperatures are below their minimum rated and suggest that it not be used below about -15C or above 40C. No doubt Photofly would agree with that. Or you could argue that the device could read incorrectly if an LCD segment goes toast. No doubt Photofly could add a few lines of code to cycle the LCD segments at power up to avoid that problem, perhaps he already has. Or if you wanted to you could ask about the code, has he ensured there are no sources of spurious interrupts that could jitter the code timing? He would likely respond that yes he has grounded the unused interrupt pins but if he hasn't he'd likely say oops good catch.

Anyway I've seen this sort of 'debate' so many times where one party offers a working solution fully explained but with caveats while another party offers only negative comments. Guess which one always wins.
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NeverBlue
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by NeverBlue »

Now you're telling me what to argue about??

Thus the Tweaker circuits like I said before...I mentioned component tolerance as a reason for inaccuracies before in this thread...which is why the xtal tolerance is out of reach.

What in my posts has been negative???? Wrong??? Please.....
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photofly
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by photofly »

cgzro wrote:
Now if you wanted to offer constructive arguments you could argue about what happens with the component's temperatures are below their minimum rated and suggest that it not be used below about -15C or above 40C. No doubt Photofly would agree with that.
Temperature is the obvious one. I put one in the freezer for 3 hours to -18°C and it still told me the power line frequency was 3600±2RPM. I haven't warmed one up - my hot air gun has been stolen by my two year old to heat-shrink some stuffed animals together in a macabre echo of some horrific surgical procedure.
Or you could argue that the device could read incorrectly if an LCD segment goes toast. No doubt Photofly could add a few lines of code to cycle the LCD segments at power up to avoid that problem, perhaps he already has
Nice idea. It will be adequate I think just to display 8888 at startup and easier to spot something missing - I'll do that now.
Or if you wanted to you could ask about the code, has he ensured there are no sources of spurious interrupts that could jitter the code timing? He would likely respond that yes he has grounded the unused interrupt pins but if he hasn't he'd likely say oops good catch.
There's only one interrupt, and that's on the photosensor. Everything else is an output pin. Interrupts are locked out to avoid a race condition for a few microseconds of code but that only runs after one measurement is completed and before the next starts so I think that's safe too.

Biggest error is where you point the thing. If you let the "beam" drift over 1/8 of the prop arc between the start and end of a timing cycle that's a change in frequency of ±20rpm. Easy to avoid when you're close to the prop but harder when you're in the pilot seat 6' away. You do have to hold it still.

Also remember we're trying to assess a tach. The engine is just a machine for turning the tach, and the prop is redundant. A big piston engine with an aerodynamic bar of Aluminium on the end isn't a very good constant speed device. It's sensitive to every breath of wind, and it has no speed governor at all, so you're at the mercy of whatever tiny fuel and oil flow variations produce. Of course you can see this in the tach too, but a digital display makes small variations much more obvious. You can still assess gross errors (4% is about 100rpm) but stressing over whether a crystal oscillator is "good enough" because it's not calibrated to better than 50 parts per million is looking in the wrong place. In my opinion.
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ahramin
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by ahramin »

photofly wrote:stressing over whether a crystal oscillator is "good enough" because it's not calibrated to better than 50 parts per million is looking in the wrong place.
Exactly. We're talking about a mechanical gauge that you can maybe read to within 10 rpm if all is perfect.
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NeverBlue
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by NeverBlue »

Ahramin,
Your the one that pointed out the xtal accuracy in the first place...I told you it meant nothing...

Now you agree?
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photofly
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by photofly »

Er, no. Exactly the opposite.

You insisted the calibration of the tool was everything. Remember your skepticism about my Fluke meaning the powerline frequency correctly and how that uncertainty (I hadn't checked my meter at 400Hz and 10kHz) made the whole tool worthless?
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Pat Richard
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by Pat Richard »

Photofly - thanks for sharing your project and demonstrating/exercising a level of patience(more like tolerance) that is worthy of a special ed instructor. I tip my hat to you.
Im not an M1 guy, but I've been finding your thread very interesting. Hope your product does well for you on the market.

Cheers'

Pat
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ahramin
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by ahramin »

NeverBlue wrote:Ahramin,
Your the one that pointed out the xtal accuracy in the first place...I told you it meant nothing...

Now you agree?
No No No. You've failed to numerate it properly. It's the overhead scrantons that are important.
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photofly
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by photofly »

I wonder if you can pick up traces of the ignition timing by looking at the 12v out of the cigarette lighter socket?
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cgzro
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by cgzro »

I wonder if you can pick up traces of the ignition timing by looking at the 12v out of the cigarette lighter socket?
Very likely, be an interesting experiment, alternatively you could put an antenna right up close to the ignition switch, or even treat the key as an antenna and look for the RF directly. Put scope leads on the key and ground and see what you get relative to the cigarette lighter?
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cgzro
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by cgzro »

What in my posts has been negative???? Wrong??? Please.....
Just off the top of my mind...

1) Multiple optical tachs would not read the same..No- I've seen the exact opposite and at much higher RPM's for model engines.
2) That they require calibration at multiple RPM's. No - Only the original needs checking to ensure no bugs or faults. Manufactured copies only need a check at one point within the specified range and the rest is unnecessary due to linearity of the entire process.
3) That it would not work reliably due to outside light sources etc. No - They do work. I've used them for years. They have a very simple work or don't work behaviour. Others here agree and a prototype was built that works.
4) That they are voltage sensitive. No they are not.
5) That the crystal has nothing to do with accuracy. Yes It does, its the primary source of all accuracy.
6) You failed to identify any real sources of problems such as those I alluded to (segment failure, very low/high temperatures) software jitter or one that photofly indicated, the sweep error at larger distances.
7) That its better to disassemble the tach, put a drill on it etc. i.e. disassembly v.s. completely non intrusive testing.
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NeverBlue
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by NeverBlue »

1) multiple optical tach testers used in many different scenarios...compared to a calibrated lab tach tester...pretty much guaranteed

2) you don't know what calibration is....you should read the definition...

3) he showed that it didn't work with 1 more bloddy light source present...look at his nice picture.

4) another brilliant statement...what about no volts...yah electronic measuring equipment is not voltage sensitive for accuracy at all...

5) the xtal has everything to do with the accuracy of the display yes...the accuracy of the clock yes...the accuracy of the math, some....but the accuracy of the entire unit?...sorry no.

6) I failed to because you say so...ok...there are a whole slew of things that can cause problems...I've only talked about a few...so what?...does ignition affect it? You don't know that it does or doesn't.

7) putting words in my mouth huh...I never ever ever ever said that was the best way...ever.....I was merely giving Ahramin an option with the equipment he said he had....maybe I should have told him instead to hold the tester 6 inches away from the spinning prop?
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NeverBlue
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by NeverBlue »

made the whole tool worthless? 
I never said that either...I use Flukes all the time...mine's a 77 that I bought in 1986..but I must calibrate it every year...rules...
It' is very inaccurate when the battery is low...resistance measurements especially.
The 20 series units I use very often as well...their frequency counters are garbage at higher frequencies and their AC measurements become unreliable at high frequency voltages...thus the benchtop 8000 series we use for calibration.
I wonder if you can pick up traces of the ignition timing by looking at the 12v out of the cigarette lighter socket?
Traces yes I think...but at all different levels...and 6 per revolution at all different levels...since it's induction separation = attenuation...a new battery in the aircraft may take it all away for a bit as well.
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photofly
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by photofly »

On the point no 1, that multiple testers give different answers: remember the saying of Confuscious.

The man with one watch knows the time. He with two is never sure.
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photofly
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by photofly »

NeverBlue wrote: 3) he showed that it didn't work with 1 more bloddy light source present...look at his nice picture.
To be accurate, I showed I couldn't easily get a steady result by shining a laser beam off the silver tape. It was the tape and laser combo that was at fault along with the idea of reflecting light rather than interrupting the light with the prop. I haven't yet tried it by shining a laser beam through the prop.

I haven't preciously mentioned: it works with voltages from 3.5 (and higher) down to 2.43 volts (where the display goes blank) with no change in frequency.
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NeverBlue
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by NeverBlue »

I haven't yet tried it by shining a laser beam through the prop.
Of course that'll work better....so will a flashlight through the prop...so will any DC powered light that has no ballast through the prop...but just one and nothing else.

...So yours works great at a low voltage...great...

my Fluke doesn't...and it's LCD display will work down to millivolts...

Just one example of an LCD display device....what's the truetach?
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photofly
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by photofly »

Tried two devices together today. They agreed within 2rpm in flight and within 5rpm during ground idle, both cycling up and down together, slightly out of phase. The variation over time of the engine rpm was about 15rpm on the ground and a few rpm in flight so the agreement between the units was better.

There was no problem holding them steady, they worked well next to each other sitting still on the glare shield.
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NeverBlue
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by NeverBlue »

...is it even close to the xtal accuracy?

So the same exact situation for two exact same units and they DON'T read exactly the same...why not?...you can't even answer that.


How much you want to bet our four 1790's do read exactly the same...because they've all been calibrated.
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photofly
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Re: Checking Tach

Post by photofly »

They don't read precisely the same because the prop speed is cycling slightly, and the measurement periods of the two units (over which the timing is averaged) are slightly out of sync. I did notice that they both showed the slight upward and downward trends together. The correlation is indicative that the periodic changes in measured rpm were a real phenomenon of the propellor and not a random artifact within the measuring system.

Without an alternative trusted measurement of rpm via a different mechanism I can't either confirm or deny that the full 20-50ppm crystal accuracy is achieved while looking at the prop. Perhaps a 'scope or FFT on the ignition pulses could be that source.

I can say however that the measurements "on the bench" of the powerline frequency and the close agreement between the two units "in the field" give me an extremely high degree of confidence in their power to measure the prop speed sufficiently accurately to confirm the prop is well within the allowed 4% tolerance - or not.

I can try an "interrupted laser beam" setup but that's going to take me while to arrange and it's only practical on the ground and not in flight.
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