Send in the Army tonight, TO Panic.....winter arrives

[Rookie50]

METAR CYYZ 290400Z 09017G25KT 1/4SM R06R/2800VP6000FT/D
R05/3000V4500FT/D -FZRA -PLSN BLSN BKN003 OVC011 M02/M03 A3006

SPECI CYTZ 290407Z AUTO 08033G42KT 1 1/4SM -SN SCT008 OVC016 01/M01
A3008 RMK PRESFR SLP192=

Nasty looking just from my house windows, about 7 miles short of 24 R. Kinda admire you guys still flying in this --

[thirdtimecharm]

Oh... -2!

Tim Horton's will probably put out a commercial calling Toronto "One of the Coldest Places in Canada".

But I'm not bitter. Just frostbitten.

[fish4life]

I doubt anyone would be flying in the freezing rain part.

[single_swine_herder]

I doubt anyone would be flying in the freezing rain part.

When JetsGo was flying, it was my misery to check them out once ..... into heavy freezing rain at YYZ .... during which I kept thinking of the certification standards for FAR 25.

That was the storm where they ran out of de-ice fluid at YYZ for a day or two.

[Rockie]

I doubt anyone would be flying in the freezing rain part.

Light freezing rain yes, it's done all the time.
Moderate - no.
Heavy - only if you have a death wish.

[Rookie50]

I doubt anyone would be flying in the freezing rain part.

Light freezing rain yes, it's done all the time.
Moderate - no.
Heavy - only if you have a death wish.

Since I'm a weather junkie --- (could be worse I guess)

I saw the Jazz flight near YQG reported severe icing in a pirep yesterday afternoon. Curious they would have been flying in that stuff in a DHC 8

[Rockie]

I saw the Jazz flight near YQG reported severe icing in a pirep yesterday afternoon. Curious they would have been flying in that stuff in a DHC 8

Nobody does deliberately.

[2R]

Good to see pilots giving Pireps . Good airmanship like that helps everyone stay aware and safe .
Thanks for the heads up fellas .
Sometimes the weather guesser gets it right, and sometimes they have to issue a now cast or as they call it an amended forecast

[pelmet]

I doubt anyone would be flying in the freezing rain part.

Light freezing rain yes, it's done all the time.
Moderate - no.
Heavy - only if you have a death wish.

Since I'm a weather junkie --- (could be worse I guess)

I saw the Jazz flight near YQG reported severe icing in a pirep yesterday afternoon. Curious they would have been flying in that stuff in a DHC 8

The worst freezing rain I ever saw was about 6 years ago. We were getting ready to do a flight and it had been freezing rain or maybe light freezing rain for quite a while but some sort of a rain shower came through and it was at least moderate or a bit more with quite large drops. I had never seen much more than light freezing rain until this day. I remember a Jazz Dash 8 landing during this weather but it likely had not been passed on to them about how bad it had quickly become. They did seem to survive it OK but I'm glad they didn't have to do a go-around.

Anyways, the ice started really accumulating quickly just sitting on the ground and soon after while we were sitting in the cockpit at the gate during the boarding process, there was a loss of electrical power and all went dark. The APU had shut down. We tried multiple restarts to no avail. It turned out that a piece of ice had slid off the fuselage and was sucked into the APU intake. I never did find out if there was any damage. A ground power was ordered which eventually showed up. We had duty day issues and we had not even started our first of 6 flights yet and now with no APU, a crossbleed start was required which means adding a lot of thrust after starting the first engine in order to start the second engine which is not good on a slippery ramp. I suppose, you could start both engines on ground air at the gate but the flight ended up being cancelled.

Your mentioning of Jazz and the freezing rain reminded me of this day.

[checkremarks]

Any ice accumulation beyond the protected surfaces of the wing is severe icing. I feel sometimes we are to generous or under-report in our PIREPS.

[Married a Canadian]

I feel sometimes we are to generous or under-report in our PIREPS.

It can go both ways though. We had one report of "severe icing" on final approach into YYZ the other night. EVERY other plane in the sky reported it as no worse than medium. Our ears prick up for obvious reasons in ATC with the word severe...but if it is over reported and goes out as a PIREP then you can pretty much stop arrivals/departures in and out of the airport.

Tough weather for sure...but from an ATC perspective...we get rather suspicious if we are getting different PIREPS at the same altitudes in a short period of time.

[AuxBatOn]

Who cares about shutting down an airport if there is a legitimate, credible imminent safety of flight issue?!

[Married a Canadian]

Who cares about shutting down an airport if there is a legitimate, credible imminent safety of flight issue?!

If ONE pilot says icing is severe and EVERYONE else says it is no more than medium...which PIREP do you think ATC is going to take?
A legitimate, credible, imminent safety of flight issue is just that....I have no problem with that, delaying traffic, closing approaches etc etc. I do have a problem with a report of SEVERE when no one else is reporting that...as that is not a "Credible" report.

[AuxBatOn]

The severity of icing depends a lot on aircraft type. What is moderate for one may be severe for another.

[Siddley Hawker]

Worst ice I ever got was once on descent with an F-27. We were only in it for a short while and the boots, props and intakes worked well but we must have has 3 or 4 inches on the non-heated portion of the windshield and radome. I have a pic of the airplane taken afterward in the hangar, I'll see if I can find it. It's an eye opener.

[TG]

The severity of icing depends a lot on aircraft type. What is moderate for one may be severe for another.

I second that, and to put it into perspective what may be reported as light icing by a 737-200 could be considered as severe for a C208.

[Married a Canadian]

The severity of icing depends a lot on aircraft type. What is moderate for one may be severe for another

Agreed and understood by ATC.
I made my point in relation to this comment

I feel sometimes we are to generous or under-report in our PIREPS

Just report what is actually occurring, don't overstate or understate. Believe me we will pass on all significant information as it is in ALL of our best interests safety wise, and we pass on all relevant details including aircraft type that made the report.
If you try to do one or other...all you do is create unnecessary confusion.

[cossack]

PIREP at YYZ last night at around 2200 local MOD-SEV mixed icing below 3000 all types.
A few departures I was speaking to heading to runway 23 pulled over to talk to dispatch while others were happy to leave without any further comment.

Within 15 minutes PIREP became LT-MOD mixed ice and normal ops resumed.

[Rockie]

PIREP at YYZ last night at around 2200 local MOD-SEV mixed icing below 3000 all types.
A few departures I was speaking to heading to runway 23 pulled over to talk to dispatch while others were happy to leave without any further comment.

Within 15 minutes PIREP became LT-MOD mixed ice and normal ops resumed.

Some operators (ahem) prohibit flight into reported severe icing.

[Married a Canadian]

"Severe" icing reported in the climb this morning through 4500-7500...pilot reported half inch accumulation (which had us wondering if this really was severe). Everyone else reported medium icing (jets and props).
After inquiries from aircraft operators and the tower, further PIREPS were received confirming Medium mixed icing in cloud by all types.
Don't over exaggerate the PIREPS please pilots...just report what you are actually getting.

[5x5]

This discussion has got me wondering.

Here's what's in the AIM (MET 2.4 on pireps)-

INTENSITY - ICE ACCUMULATION
Trace
Ice becomes perceptible. The rate of accumulation is slightly greater than the rate of sublimation. It is not hazardous, even though de-icing or anti-icing equipment is not used, unless encountered for an extended period of time (over 1 hour).

Light
The rate of accumulation may create a problem if flight is prolonged in this environment (over 1 hour).

Moderate
The rate of accumulation is such that even short encounters become potentially hazardous, and use of de-icing or anti-icing equipment or diversion is necessary.

Severe
The rate of accumulation is such that de-icing or anti-icing equipment fails to reduce or control the hazard. Immediate diversion is necessary.

I don't fly big airplanes in icing conditions but is there any additional guidance as to severity that includes thickness of the ice or accumulation beyond the anti-icing surfaces? It seems that a lot of the comments in this thread include that, but what relationship is there?

[rxl]

This discussion has got me wondering.

Here's what's in the AIM (MET 2.4 on pireps)-

INTENSITY - ICE ACCUMULATION
Trace
Ice becomes perceptible. The rate of accumulation is slightly greater than the rate of sublimation. It is not hazardous, even though de-icing or anti-icing equipment is not used, unless encountered for an extended period of time (over 1 hour).

Light
The rate of accumulation may create a problem if flight is prolonged in this environment (over 1 hour).

Moderate
The rate of accumulation is such that even short encounters become potentially hazardous, and use of de-icing or anti-icing equipment or diversion is necessary.

Severe
The rate of accumulation is such that de-icing or anti-icing equipment fails to reduce or control the hazard. Immediate diversion is necessary.

I don't fly big airplanes in icing conditions but is there any additional guidance as to severity that includes thickness of the ice or accumulation beyond the anti-icing surfaces? It seems that a lot of the comments in this thread include that, but what relationship is there?

The CRJ that I fly is not by any stretch a "big" airplane, but generally like most "jets" I would think, airborne icing is not much of an issue thanks to hot wings the high rates of climb and descent that are available. Having said that, there is a very definite limit in the AOM with regards to icing which states - "Continued operation in areas where Super-cooled Large Droplet (SLD) icing conditions exist is PROHIBITED. SLD icing conditions are indicated by ice accretion on the flight deck side windows. Leave icing conditons when side window icing occurs." And yes, the side windows are heated almost to the point where they are uncomfortable to the touch, so this by anyone's definition would be severe icing. In 13 years on the airplane I have only seen this happen once or twice. SLD's are defined as droplets of greater than 40 microns in diameter and I'm pretty sure that there isn't an airplane on earth that is certified for flight in SLD.

[HiLo]

http://www.thestar.com/news/starweather ... inter.html

Really, "extreme" cold weather? Toronto makes me laugh.