FTU Wind Limits

[HiLo]

One common theme on AvCanada is that FTUs have wind limits that are overly restrictive and don't allow for real-world learning. In light of that, what do people think an FTU's wind limitations should be, if any (obviously the maximum is dictated by the POH).

[PropToFeather]

The one I trained in had wind limits at approximately 50% of book value for pre-PPL students (unless with instructor), and book limits for licensed pilots. The only people I have ever heard have an issue with it were the cowboys that, at 10 TT wanted to be doing short field practice in direct 20 (gusting) crosswind.

So, I guess what I'm saying is... that seems reasonable to me.

[PilotDAR]

Let's remind ourselves that there are no wind "limits" expressed in the flight manual for a certified aircraft. There probably is a "maximum demonstrated crosswind" value expressed, but it is not in "Section 2 - Limitations" and is therefore not limiting. A pilot may fly in a stronger corsswind without exceeding an aircraft limitation nor regulation. The certification process requires "demonstration" of the ability to handle a crosswind up to a value of 20% of the stall speed, without the application of unusual pilot skill or attention. Manufacturer's have no incentive to state a value greater than the 20% Vso, so usually don't. Thus the flight manual value is information, but may not describe the aircraft's actual capability - which the pilot is legally entitled to explore. Consider the regulatory contradiction of a flight manual, and by extension a regulation which had the effect of prohibiting a landing! "No, landing prohibited, stay up there until the winds change!". No, that wouldn't work - you gotta let pilots land, and the conditions might not always be as expected.

I have flown aircraft in winds which exceeded the demonstrated value, and been pleasantly surprised at the ease of control up to a point. That point is usually when you have the rudder held in full to keep it straight. If you land, and can't keep it laterally on the runway, apply power (which will provide more rudder effectiveness) and go around.

Now, what the owner of the aircraft want's to allow you to do in their aircraft could be more limiting - but that's the owner, not the aircraft doing the limiting. I suggest that while under competent supervision, new pilots fly up to the demonstrated crosswind value of their aircraft in a more steady wind, just to get the experience, and realize that it is safely possible.... If this requires the owner's permission - ask. If the FTU cannot provide a competent instructor to supervise crosswind circuits up to "demonstrated" - worry.

[photofly]

There's no such thing as a "typical" student pilot so there should be no such thing as across-the-board crosswind limits for student piots. Any such limit is just lazy lazy management.

As PilotDAR points out, the demonstrated crosswind component should be - and is - within the bounds of no more than average pilot technique. Once a student knows how properly to land in a crosswind then there's no reason to impose on him or her a limit stricter than that imposed on any other kind of pilot. And until a student knows how to land in a crosswind they shouldn't really be let loose solo.

[5x5]

One common theme on AvCanada is that FTUs have wind limits that are overly restrictive and don't allow for real-world learning.

One of my peeves is when people make those kind of statements - very general and applied across the board. Because then other readers think that is a common problem. Perhaps some schools have very restrictive limits, but most have general limits in their SOPs that can be modified to particular situations depending on instructor and CFI input.

Once a student knows how properly to land in a crosswind then there's no reason to impose on him or her a limit stricter than that imposed on any other kind of pilot. And until a student knows how to land in a crosswind they shouldn't really be let loose solo.

Seriously photofly - you think a student should have to fly dual until they can handle crosswinds as well as a 500 hour regular renter with a CPL? Most of the time you make a lot of sense, but I'm certainly puzzled by your opinion on this one.

My understanding is that most schools will have an instructor identify the limits for individual students as they progress. It starts low and once they've demonstrated their ability with stronger x-winds their limit goes up.

[PropToFeather]

There's no such thing as a "typical" student pilot so there should be no such thing as across-the-board crosswind limits for student pilots. Any such limit is just lazy lazy management.

Sure there is! It's called a 10 hour student, who's just starting to get to a point of actually understanding the aircraft, but may not have the full toolkit at their disposal for dealing with crosswind that's at or above the "demonstrated average". Throwing them to the crosswind wolves by themselves at that point just seems irresponsible. And, from what I've seen, at least the FTUs in my area all had the exception written in there "unless approved by CFI", and every student was taught to check if they would get the exception.

For what it's worth, I've landed over the "max demonstrated with average pilot technique" crosswind in several planes during training (including one that still had rudder to spare in 17kt direct). I had to ask to do it before I got licensed, and never got hassled about it after I got my PPL, and it seemed to have worked out similarly with others doing training there. I'm just curious if you folks would like an even more permissive system? (Or am I just so lucky to have gotten a pretty laid back training experience? I'm seriously asking)

[photofly]

Seriously photofly - you think a student should have to fly dual until they can handle crosswinds as well as a 500 hour regular renter with a CPL? Most of the time you make a lot of sense, but I'm certainly puzzled by your opinion on this one.

I'm saying that once you "get" crosswind landings, a 20 knot crosswind isn't much more tricky than a 5 knot one.

Of course there are people who land in 5kt crosswinds by pretending it isn't there, and they get away with it - which they wouldn't do in a 20kt crosswind. But we don't want students "getting away with it" in a 5kt crosswind, do we? We want students who use the right technique.

Now if a student can use the right technique in a 5 knot crosswind they can use the right technique in a 20kt crosswind.

And if they can't use the right technique in a 5 knot crosswind they shouldn't be out solo because by repeated practice they'll be reinforcing in their own heads the wrong way to land in a 5kt crosswind.

Maybe we should stop pretending that a 20kt crosswind in a Cessna is something we should only expect to be well done by a 500hour regular renter with a CPL. That's what makes sense to me.

[lhalliday]

The folks who taught me to fly worked like American Express: you can fly in as much crosswind as you've shown them you can handle. The limit was when you ran out of rudder authority, which was about the demonstrated crosswind in the POH.

I did some taildragger flying last fall. The crosswind limits were much lower. This makes sense when you have your hands and feet busy keeping the plane going in even approximately a straight line down the runway.

...laura

[Broken Slinky]

My FTU uses duty pilot discretion when winds including gusts exceeds 20 knots, no flight operations when winds including gusts exceeds 30 knots, the maximum crosswind component is never to be exceeded.
It is an across the board policy so no one weaker pilot is singled out. Besides, who wants to fly an 85 knot trainer in 30 knot winds? It'll take you forever on final to get on the ground. The down winds will go really fast too for someone early into their training.

[Rookie50]

Runways and conditions matter as well and would be a factor.

Waterloo Rwy 26 and Guelph runway 25, just a few miles apart but I think different limits would be appropriate.

[PilotDAR]

I'm saying that once you "get" crosswind landings, a 20 knot crosswind isn't much more tricky than a 5 knot one.

Generally, I agree with this. The 20 knot steady crosswind (presuming within "demonstrated" for the type), will require more perception skills, and more application of control, but otherwise is not that much different. If it's gusty, that's something else, as it would be for basic into the wind flying.

Students should learn early that the aircraft is provided with carefully defined control travel - just what's needed, but not too much. Use full control if you need it - that's what it's there for! I have crosswind tested modified aircraft, and always found a reserve of a few knots.

I too have been leery of crosswinds in taildraggers, but the truth is until you're moving so slowly that the rudder is ineffective, it doesn't really matter where the third wheel is, you're not using it to steer right? Yes, the taildragger will pivot around the mains with more sensitivity, and be a bit more snappy doing it - so those rudder skills should be developed. The plane has demonstrated crosswind compliance, so it's not the plane's fault if the pilot is challenged.

If you have a choice, choose the grass or gravel runway for a crosswind landing, it'll "forgive" your technique a little more than dry pavement!

Think of crosswind landings like parallel parking - you'd rather avoid if you can, but every now and then, you have to, so best practice regularly!

[5x5]

Now if a student can use the right technique in a 5 knot crosswind they can use the right technique in a 20kt crosswind.

Perhaps this is the key as to why I don't understand your stance. There is definitely a difference between a 5 knot and a 20 kt crosswind. Simply the magnitude makes for different requirements as to amount of input and response from the airplane when such inputs are employed. "Getting" the technique and being able to employ it reliably 100% of the time takes practice. Making the occasional mistake with a 5 knot limit is not very likely to cause much of an issue whereas making a mistake at 20 knots could easily lead to an incident or accident. How long it would take for a student to progress from 5 knots to 20 knots will vary just like progress with any skill development - some very rapidly and some not so much.

Extending your comment on crosswinds to other exercises, it would only take about 10 hours to get a licence because as soon as a student "got" an exercise and demonstrated it once they would be good to go reliably with no practice or development needed.

I do agree that crosswinds tend to have an over-stated aura of difficulty around them and that they are relatively simple and could generally stand to be trained more effectively in many cases.

[Shiny Side Up]

There's no such thing as a "typical" student pilot so there should be no such thing as across-the-board crosswind limits for student pilots. Any such limit is just lazy lazy management.

Consider it lazy if you will, while I don't have such limits, I can totally see why some places do. After all, try telling the above to the person that you don't want out in the crosswind. Unfortunately, hurt feeling customer/students is bad for business in lots of cases, and you hurt the feelings of less people by having an across the board rule. Given that these usually appear in larger scale schools (its easy for me with my small school to explain it repeatedly on a day to day basis) where I could imagine you'd be having the conversation on perhaps an hourly basis. In all the time I've been doing this CFI thing, I've almost never had to come in on the student's side of an instructor's decision not to take them out in whatever wind conditions were happening. Occasionally instructors are a little more on the side of caution than they need to be, but I'd rather that than the other way around. Its been my long experience that students rarely consider all but the most hurricane like winds in their want to "get the lesson done" and "get those hours" thought process.

Now that said, recently some very "experienced" pilots and a few instructors have been critical of how much wind I'll turn my students loose in. Funny stuff how what's acceptable at a school is always in flux depending on how much someone likes said school.

[JasonE]

If you have the opportunity while training to explore the cross wind limit of your plane with an instructor - I highly recommend it. I struggled with cross winds a bit until I went out in G26 @ 70deg cross wind. That's when I learned what running out of rudder meant. I had a blast and no longer feared cross wind techniques. It made me a better pilot during my training that's for sure.

[HiLo]

Let's remind ourselves that there are no wind "limits" expressed in the flight manual for a certified aircraft. There probably is a "maximum demonstrated crosswind" value expressed, but it is not in "Section 2 - Limitations" and is therefore not limiting.

Are you sure?

Does anyone care to check the POH of whatever aircraft they are flying next?

[photofly]

it's not limiting because it's not written as a limit. Doesn't matter where it appears.

[SuperchargedRS]

With where I trained, where I worked as a instructor and at the small school I ran, we had no limits, it was at the instructors discretion.

[PilotDAR]

That's a new one on me HiLo, I may stand to be corrected, but I'm not sure just yet. I'm going to do some homework on this.

I agree with Photofly, it's not presented as a limitation, but it is in the limitations section, which is mandatory compliance. I have not flown a DA-20, so I was unfamiliar with this. The DA-42, which is where my Diamond experience is, presents the demonstrated crosswind value in section 5 only, where it is commonly found. (So for the DA-42, it is not limiting) I see that both DA-20 aircraft present that in formation in both the limitations, and performance sections. That's ambiguous.

So, for now, I concede that for the DA-20, you may be limitation bound, but for all types which do not present the crosswind value in section 2, you are not legally limited by the value in section 5 - apply your skill and judgement to the situation.

[lhalliday]

I just had a look in a couple of POHs I had handy.

Bellanca Citabria: Nothing.

Cessna 152: Depends on pilot skill. Normal Procedures section.

Cessna 172P: Maximum demonstrated crosswind 15 knots. Normal Procedures section.

Cherokee 140: Not a word...

...laura

[7ECA]

Laura,

The C152 POH, page 4-3, Maximum demonstrated crosswind velocity 12 knots.

As for the Citabria, I once had some fun with Michael P during my tailwheel training (those ten hours were spent either doing what he calls tedious circuit flights, and some aerobatics to shake things up) at Boundary Bay. Nice windy day, 12 active, wind was gusting over 20 knots, but only about 10° off of the runway, easy stuff there. So Michael decides he wants to do some circuits on 07. Crabbed all the way down, and then kicked straight, only to get bounced sideways rapidly across the runway - out of rudder. Go around, try it again, same sort of show, albeit more noticeably running out of rudder earlier on. A very good learning experience...

[JasonE]

My Cherokee POH is old enough that it doesn't even have the standard sections or mention of crosswind.

[lhalliday]

The C152 POH, page 4-3, Maximum demonstrated crosswind velocity 12 knots.

I stand corrected. I've never landed a 152 in any appreciable crosswind.

Cherokees and 172s are another matter. Last summer there were several days when the wind was 300 at a significant speed (>20 knots) and the CZBB controllers kept clearing me to land on 25. Maybe they thought it was entertaining or something. I heard a couple of planes reject 25 and request 30.

I got my best crosswinds at Langley when the cadets were playing with gliders on 07/25 so it was 01/19 or wait a while or divert...

...laura

[PilotDAR]

There was a harmonization of flight manual format in the mid '70's as an industry/FAA effort, and the result is the standardized format we have now. The intent was that the information itself, and location within the flight manual be easy to find. Prior to that, flight manuals (or the many other names they were given) followed various "best practice" format of each manufacturer. It could be hard to find what you were looking for, and sometimes it was not there at all.

So allow in your mind for the less stringent format of "older" flight manuals, but for the newer ones, learn the format, it will be consistent going forward. Once you have the format in your mind, it will make it very easy to quickly find what you would like to know about the next type you'll fly (assuming it has a similarly new flight manual).

I was nervous of crosswind flying in my taildragger when I first checked myself out in it. It is one of the more unforgiving taildraggers. So on a cold clear winter day, I went out and flew many circuits on the bare ice of Lake Simcoe. My taildragger has a demonstrated value of 12 knots. The wind was about 20 knots that day. I flew landings more and more off the wind, until finally, it was a direct crosswind. I used a good technique (out of fear - not skill) and had no problem, until slowing to less than around 10 knots. At that slow speed, and with no power, the rudder lost its effectiveness. On the ice, the tailwheel had no traction, so the plane slowly groundlooped - harmlessly. I learned that my effective use of the rudder was doing everything to maintain heading - the third wheel, nearly nothing. Similarly, on the water, a crosswind landing is all the rudder, as there is no steering wheel to help. Water rudder after you slow does work better than a tailwheel on ice though!

During crosswind testing I have applied and held full rudder a few times, to maintain the runway centerline during landing. I knew that I could apply power to increase rudder affect if I needed it.

[AuxBatOn]

Not your typical trainer but there is a crosswind limit in the Hornet: 30 kts on a dry surface. I landed in a 35G40 wind in Iceland, giving me the 30 kts crosswind: yup, it was a challenge.