Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

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whistlerboy02
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by whistlerboy02 »

You only pay 13% tax on the difference between the old plane and the new one if you use a broker.
I imagine the cheapest option would be to sell my plane and buy another used one with an IFR GPS already installed, but my plane flies sweetly, in great trim, with almost nothing but routine maintenance over the past 7-8 years, and I don't like the risk of taking on a hangar queen (plus the 13% HST on the new plane)
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awitzke
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by awitzke »

SuperchargedRS wrote:FYI 430s can be upgraded to WAAS, and Garmin still repairs the GNS series
The 430 I use is WAAS certified.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by sparky99 »

HiFlyChick wrote:
7ECA wrote:Aspens are great, when they work. I did my multi-engine rating in a Seneca that had problems with both the ASI and Altimeter tape. Which didn't really matter all that much as there were still the original ASI and Altimeter installed. But it did prove annoying on the first flight or two....
The company I flew for had an Aspen in their Navajo that was replaced twice I think (under warranty, thank goodness) for problems, and then it was still always flaky - showing 3-4 deg bank at random times, occasionally the wind readout would just disappear, and the temp always read about 3-4 deg higher than it really was. For the big chunk of change that it cost, it should have been performing a lot better than it did.
Aspens are great for the private owner but I've seen them installed in commercial operations (PA-31's) and they are terrible. As for the OP, scope out any avionics shops you can... I know most have probably taken in a mountain of 430W's or even GPS400W's on trade. I've personally removed 9 of them in the last year so I know they are plentiful right now.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by goingnowherefast »

awitzke wrote:The 430 I use is WAAS certified.
And? Want a cookie?


You can get a 430 in 3 different varieties relating to WAAS (there's terrain and non-terrain versions too)
straight 430, no WAAS, no LPVs
straight 430 upgraded to WAAS, works very similar to a 430W
the 430W has WAAS from new, and slightly faster computer bits.

I would expect you should be able to get a good 430W, or a WAAS upgraded unit installed for about 12-15 grand. Keep an eye on Barnstormers, call Canadian avionics shops and hopefully you'll find one for sale. There's tons in the States, but the dollar makes them more expensive.
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awitzke
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by awitzke »

For 12-15k, you should be able to find a 530.
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photofly
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by photofly »

The brand new Avidyne is less than that.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by awitzke »

I just did a quick search on Barnstormers and there were 3 430W's from $6500-$8000.
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dpm
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by dpm »

awitzke wrote:I just did a quick search on Barnstormers and there were 3 430W's from $6500-$8000.
Thanks for looking. If that's US, it's still $10K Canadian, plus another $10K to install and certify. Even if it's CAD 6,500, it sounds like I'd end up at over $20K installed after HST.

D
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by dirtdr »

dpm wrote: What would my least-expensive options be to install an approach-capable, WAAS IFR GPS in a Canadian airplane? I'm not looking for a big, fancy display, satellite weather, or a touchscreen (I can get that on my VFR-only GPS or tablet).
I had this same question a year ago for my twin.

I started off wanting the cheapest solution. I ended up with a 750, new second comm, new audio panel, new transponder, a pair of aspens, and flightstream. My original quote was about 17k for a used 430 installed, including a new indicator, antenna, etc. From there it went like this: for just a couple grand more you can have this.... oh and for a couple grand more... and so on.. until I ended up spending triple the original quote. I am glad I did tho. the aspens really do a good job of tying everything together.
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Tailwind W10
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by Tailwind W10 »

DPM, there's another element to add to the equation. As it sounds you enjoy flying into the US, after the end of 2019, you'll require all the ADS-B equipment. "Out" will be required, the "In" part is not required, but is a nice-to-have. You would need a fairly modern WAAS GPS as a position source and either a dedicated ADS-B transmitter, or a new transponder with ADS-B built in, to broadcast your location to ATC.

Sorry to pile on, just some more to think about.

Gerry
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by dpm »

Tailwind W10 wrote:DPM, there's another element to add to the equation. As it sounds you enjoy flying into the US, after the end of 2019, you'll require all the ADS-B equipment. "Out" will be required, the "In" part is not required, but is a nice-to-have. You would need a fairly modern WAAS GPS as a position source and either a dedicated ADS-B transmitter, or a new transponder with ADS-B built in, to broadcast your location to ATC.

Sorry to pile on, just some more to think about.

Gerry
Good point. Those seem to be running at around USD 4,000 right now (including built-in WAAS GPS), plus installation. A lot cheaper than a certified IFR navigation GPS, but still, there might be savings getting an ADS-B transceiver that runs off an existing GPS.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by 5x5 »

This is certainly the dilemma of anyone with an aircraft from the 70's or 80's - it's an expensive upgrade and you never will get your money back. Financially it's really hard, if not impossible, to justify it on hard numbers. It's so difficult to put a value on "nicer" and "easier" so usually it finally comes down to a simple "I want it so I'm gong to buy it" decision. Good luck - it's a tough one.

As for ADSB, don't jump too soon, there are a lot of changes going on in the US right now. Lack of FAA mandating specific hardware requirements has all the major manufacturers changing things a lot. Also, there's this little project - http://stratux.me/ - that has kind of turned things upside down there.
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dpm
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by dpm »

In the end, I bit the bullet and bought a new Garmin GTN 650 (installed in my PA-28-161 at Brant Aero this last August). With the GNS 430W selling used for only about $3K less, it didn't make sense to buy 20-year-old technology with a 10-year-old WAAS upgrade to save a few bucks.

I like the GTN 650 a lot—it's an easy, intuitive system, and off to the side it doesn't interfere with my mostly analogue-by-choice panel (I work on computers for a living, so I don't want to fly one for fun). For me, though, the biggest plus was the chance to learn RNAV procedures after 14 years of conventional IFR flying—it made everything new and exciting again.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by HiFlyChick »

I think some of the price is in getting the GPS to drive the primary nav aid, which i would assume probably means replacing said nav aid with one that has the appropriate connector for the GPS. When we got our 430W installed 10+ years ago it was in the ballpark of $20k, so I would expect it to be somewhat less for a 430W only because it's old equipment, but the labour cost would probably be higher now, so the end result would be the same.

No one mentioned that you will also have to purchase a subscription to the database (can't recall exactly, but call it around $500/yr), the programming hardware is a one shot of about $100, and then there's the maintenance - annual GPS system and antenna inspection. Doesn't take long, but it all costs.

Just an aside about the Aspen - a former company I flew with had one that was a disappointment from the word go. It was replaced twice for being defective (under warranty, I think), and even then it would occasionally show a slight bank. Only 3-5 degrees mind you, but enough to be really annoying. Coupling it to the A/P was a total pain and meant that from time to time it would wander slowly back and forth by 5-10 degrees. On very rare occasions, we would get a giant X where our AI should be - very rare, but pretty darn upsetting. I would never buy an Aspen again until I saw some significant proof that they had gotten rid of all of those problems (I'm not sure that we didn't have one of the first generation systems, but still, hard to learn to trust it ever again).
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by photofly »

HiFlyChick wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:26 pm then there's the maintenance - annual GPS system and antenna inspection. Doesn't take long, but it all costs.
No such specific requirements for private aircraft, as far as I know.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by ahramin »

Certainly isn't anything in 625 B & C, which is what every single engine piston aircraft I have flown uses for a maintenance schedule.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by HiFlyChick »

photofly wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:10 pm No such specific requirements for private aircraft, as far as I know.
Oh, ok - I didn't realize that private didn't have to follow the manufacturer's ICA for installed equipment (like 703 operators do). Makes sense, though...
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by photofly »

I’m speaking out of school, probably, but the ICA are not themselves either approved or mandatory in any regime. I believe they have to be taken into account when an operator writes their maintenance schedules, but they don’t have the force of regulation verbatim... unless anyone knows different?

I also read that instructions for continued airworthiness are an STC thing, and “owned” by the STC holder who may not be the manufacturer.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by dpm »

There's really little point buying a used 430W these days—they're going for USD 7.5K on eBay, while a new GTN 650 goes for around USD 10K (about 1K more if you prefer Avidyne over Garmin). Figure about CAD 5K for installation etc either way.

Why pay almost the same price for 20 year old tech with a low-res display? I spent months trying to figure out a way to do it on the cheap, but the numbers never worked out.
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Re: Least-expensive IFR GPS options in Canada

Post by SuperchargedRS »

Wow, lots of bad info in here.

Depends on what the OP wants do do, non WAAS bare bones stuff a small Garmin GNC will do basic enroute and com for 3k USD plus install.

Step up would be a 430 for 5k USD plus install

Top of the line shoot any approach would be a 430W for 7k plus install

Want a bigger screen get a 530 for a few thousand more.


photofly wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:48 pm ...the oldest 430 models are not WAAS upgradeable and are no longer supported by Garmin)
...
Image

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/597181

Rookie50 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:14 pm ...as so many have upgraded to the GTN's...
Actually not all that many, and it's not really as much a upgrade, as a WAAS GTN and a WAAS GNS shoot all the exact same approaches and to the same mins. The GNS line is still the most popular non FMS based navcom, as can be seen in how flight safety configures their non FMS sims at their largest centers.



YvesT wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:41 pm From recent experience, the least of your worries would be the actual GPS receiver. I can not see a reason to even bother with a non-WAAS capable one, really.
Because it still does enroute, STARS SIDS, most GPS approaches, and can still get you down far enough on most days
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