feelings on air canada hiring

[quickflight]

Thanks for the thought abc, I want all to know that I am not against young guys in the cockpit, I personally wish that all that want to fly find the career they want early, life is short. I think the thought that i had in a recent interview is best, if sitting next to a peron that is 10 or 15 years youger and they are captain who am I to take that away from them, they earned, what I might bring to the cockpit in that case is an aid to good decision making. I have no probelm with younger pilots, hell everybody at the same stage as me is younger or a lifer. I just want an equal shot at a real career. Despite the fact that I have 10- 15 years on most guys.

[Rebel]

quickflight

AC has in the past hired pilots in their late 40's so you never know...

[quickflight]

Said I was old Not senior citizen

[gelbisch]

Did you stop at high school or did you take any university courses?

No sir. I went to an aviation college, which is apparently -- according to AC -- on par with university education.

Also, I think I read in some of your responses on this forum that your references are your relatives who work for AC. Do you have others you might use before family?

Yes sir... two.

I think I've done as much as I can on my end... all about the waiting now...

[bush pilot]

What college is on par with university education?

[gelbisch]

I went to an aviation college, which is apparently -- according to AC -- on par with university education.

For purposes of evaluating candidates. If you read closely I never said "colleges are on par with universities."

That said, there was a hell of a lot of university-level mathematics and physics in my program... and whenever I visited buddies who were in fact in university, all I saw was a lot of drinking and partying. All I remember about college, in contrast, was work work work work work...

[bush pilot]

Don't read to much into my question. It was just a question! I should have made it longer but I did not want to type that much. I did read your post correctly but I should of said, What College Does AC Put On Par With University Education.

And you did not answer the question, you just mentioned work load.

I went to a College and was just wondering if it was the one?

[. .]

I've heard a few different stories as to what AC considers to to be equal to university.

Some say any flight school that has buddied up with a community college

Some say Seneca, Sault for sure, confed, mount royal, the french one and maybe costal pacific too?

Apparently the thinking behind the seneca and sault were that they were aviation technology diplomas rather then a buisness diploma. As Gelbisch was saying the aviation technology diploma progams were very heavy on the calc, physics, hydraullics, etc. This is very old info and could have changed like everything else with this new round of AC thinking. Can anyone shine some light on this?

[scotothedoublet]

Bush

I believe what Gelbisch is saying is that AC recognizes Aviation Diplomas as being on par with degrees. I've also read that there is a point system where a degree, an aviation diploma and a misc diploma will score you 5, 4 and 3 points respectively.

From their website:

Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:
Canadian Airline Transport Pilot licence
University degree or college diploma
Aviation College diploma
Military or commercial flight experience
Jet and/or glass cockpit experience
Additional language(s)

TT

[jumperdumper]

*Sigh* what can we really do to change it? Nothing lets look for the best option for each of of us and move on.....

"You can't control the future, or change the past, all we can control is right now"...for all those who are stewing in this ...get a grib. Air Canada is not the end to be all!

[gelbisch]

Sorry, bush, my bad.

Endless said it all... I was thinking like Seneca and Sault, and you can throw whichever others in there you wish... those are just the two I'm most familiar with.

Anyway, as others have just said as well, it's AC that gives points for them so I couldn't say for sure...

[centerstored]

Gelbisch, the only reason it makes sense to me, is that hiring a diversified group of pilots (age wise) can be benificial to AC down the road at retirement time. It would be stupid for them to hire 600 5-7000hr 30 somethings and create a wave of retirements 25 years from now. There is a limit though, and I think AC has been hiring some very weak, inexperienced candidates. 2000 hours will work out fine if you got it in the right place. Some of these new hires just aren't going to cut the mustard!

[Jaques Strappe]

What is safer - a new hire r/p or f/o that is willing to learn a new system, absorb information, experience and grow, or one that already feels he (she) should be in the left seat, already feels that he has all the necessary background, and is an agro whiner complaining about all the old commanders that should just move on out?

I am with Balls on this one. When AC started expanding again in 1995, one of the first guys hired after after all the recalls were brought back, was a high time 737 Captain from NWT. He was fired before he ever made a revenue line flight because he was untrainable. Too many bad habits engrained into him after so many years of doing it " his way". Getting up a good head of steam during the taxi in with the APU running and shutting both engines down to coast into the gate was the final straw!

There definately seems to be an "attitude of entitlement" for some guys and just from reading some of the posts, I am happy you didn't get the call to be frank. I would much rather work with a 2500 hr F/O who is keen rather than a 7000 hr F/O who will be eternally pissed off because he is an F/O.

[whipline]

And I can name some Ex Canadian guys I flew with that were horrible and did things "their" way cause our was was "wrong". They ended up getting fired. Don't lump everyone into that mold its a rareity.

And I love it when I here the argument "low timers can be molded" I could learn your SOP's in 1 nite JS

[KAG]

what about us 4000 hour drivers...too much for some, not enough for others...stuck in the middle again.

[confuzed]

What is safer - a new hire r/p or f/o that is willing to learn a new system, absorb information, experience and grow, or one that already feels he (she) should be in the left seat, already feels that he has all the necessary background, and is an agro whiner complaining about all the old commanders that should just move on out?

I am with Balls on this one. When AC started expanding again in 1995, one of the first guys hired after after all the recalls were brought back, was a high time 737 Captain from NWT. He was fired before he ever made a revenue line flight because he was untrainable. Too many bad habits engrained into him after so many years of doing it " his way". Getting up a good head of steam during the taxi in with the APU running and shutting both engines down to coast into the gate was the final straw!.

That drives me nuts where I am!! Some of the more senior guys I fly with still do things their way (or follow the old SOP's) even after SOP's have changed. You almost have to drag it out of them just to get some new SOP's accomplished the way they're supposed to be done. To me, that is untrainable.

Also, I see a lot of people looking down on others just because they don't have a post secondary education. I think this is total BS, as it's a choice (most of the time) whether or not to go and attain post secondary education. You may be able to afford one or the other, but not both. Who's to say that an individual is not intelligent or untrainable just because they don't have this magic piece of paper called a degree/diploma. I'm not saying that those that do are useless! I'm just saying that for those who could only afford to get the flying in (or decided to build experience first and get the degree later via distance learning), and not the university route shouldn't all be classified as idiots. Who am I to argue though, since to some people I'm just an idiot

[Jaques Strappe]

And I can name some Ex Canadian guys I flew with that were horrible and did things "their" way cause our was was "wrong". They ended up getting fired.

My point exactly whipline. As for learning SOP's in one night, then you are the master.

My only point is this. In the aftermath of a merger, we had to combine two airlines SOP's and culture into one. Not an easy task by any stretch. I am proud to say that I think it was done very well even with all the petty bickering. Ever ridden in a USAir flt deck? A great example of just how difficult it is to teach an old dog new tricks.

Yonger people, in general tend to have more of an open mind and deal with change better than some old crusty fart. In general, the younger crowd has less time in the log book so a balance is required. All the bitching on here from the higher time guys is an example of what I think the airline is trying to stay away from. Notice how I use "in general" and "I think", these are only my offerings as to perhaps why the airline is doing what it is doing.

If people want to just sit around and bitch about why they didn't get the call, then get used to it. The phone probably won't be ringing anytime soon.

[Jaques Strappe]

Confused wrote

That drives me nuts where I am!! Some of the more senior guys I fly with still do things their way (or follow the old SOP's) even after SOP's have changed. You almost have to drag it out of them just to get some new SOP's accomplised the way they're supposed to be done. To me, that is untrainable.

Exactly



Confused wrote:

Also, I see a lot of people looking down on others just because they don't have a post secondary education. I think this is total BS, as it's a choice (most of the time) whether or not to go and attain post secondary education. You may be able to afford one or the other, but not both. Who's to say that an individual is not intelligent or untrainable just because they don't have this magic piece of paper called a degree/diploma. I'm not saying that those that do are useless! I'm just saying that for those who could only afford to get the flying in (or decided to build experience first and get the degree later via distance learning), and not the university route shouldn't all be classified as idiots. Who am I to argue though, since to some people I'm just an idiot

I agree also that looking down on someone because they don't have a degree is B.S. I for one do not believe that a degree makes a better pilot but when the pilot pool is much greater than demand then do you not think an employer has every right to weed that number down by asking for a higher education? Most airlines in the world require a degree, Air Canada only requires an education to the University acceptance level. So what is wrong with that?

[confuzed]

I agree also that looking down on someone because they don't have a degree is B.S. I for one do not believe that a degree makes a better pilot but when the pilot pool is much greater than demand then do you not think an employer has every right to weed that number down by asking for a higher education? Most airlines in the world require a degree, Air Canada only requires an education to the University acceptance level. So what is wrong with that?

I fully understand what you're saying Jaques, which now almost makes me regret the path that I chose. I chose not to go for the post secondary education, in favor of building up some experience in the industry and earning some money. I guess hindsight is 20/20 though. My only hope for Air Canada I guess is when the pool starts to dry up a little, maybe I'll get my shot. Up until that point, I have come to accept the fact that not having a post secondary education is going to hinder my advancement into larger equipment. I gambled wrong when I thought that more experience would count for something, but I digress.

It's great to finally see some movement though, and I can't understand why people are getting so fired up. I know seniority is everything, but when the plans for such a mass hiring is here it will happen. It's just a matter of time, and people that match the criteria WILL get their shot. Patience is a virtue some people don't have I guess.

[whipline]

"I am with Balls on this one. When AC started expanding again in 1995, one of the first guys hired after after all the recalls were brought back, was a high time 737 Captain from NWT. He was fired before he ever made a revenue line flight because he was untrainable. Too many bad habits engrained into him after so many years of doing it " his way". Getting up a good head of steam during the taxi in with the APU running and shutting both engines down to coast into the gate was the final straw!"

Just out of curiosity JS did AC hire direct entry captains in 95?

Just call me Yoda JS. You completely missed my point. For every one high time pilot that washes out I would bet there would be 50 low timers washing out. It is a very rare thing to see someone with some heavier jet time not make it through. I also used to fly with a guy that shut down the engines while travelling on the taxi and I used to think to myself what the hell is he doing, hopefully the accumulators work. Unfortunately the odd one makes it through and its nice to see them get "caught".

You work at AC and should know why pilots with 5000 hrs are complaining about 2000 hr pilots getting jobs. Its all about obtaining a number, a number so important you boys (OAC, OCP, OAO, JAZZ) are still fighting over it.

The only argument I have heard so far that makes any sense is demographics, not wanting all the pilots to retire at the exact same time. The flip side of that is AC better be prepared for low timers occupying the left seat on the Emb's in a few years. Someone with 2000 hrs of ciruit time can be hired as a cruiser right now, build seniority then bid left seat EMB in 3 or 4 yrs.

[gelbisch]

There definately seems to be an "attitude of entitlement" for some guys and just from reading some of the posts, I am happy you didn't get the call to be frank.

One last word on the matter, and then I'm done!

I enjoy reading your posts, Jaques, but I must disagree with you this time and say: don't confuse frustration with a bad attitude. We've all come up in an industry that favours the best-qualifed, and you can't help but be stunned when experience suddenly seems much less relevant. Yeah, there's a lot of bitching going on, but it's mostly just venting and an attempt to understand this new hiring process.

Back when you were hired, wouldn't you have been a little concerned if a bunch of less-qualifed guys were getting seats, but you for the life of you could not? I can only speak for myself, but I've never been in a big rush to step over people to get to the left seat, at my current or any previous jobs. The goal of my entire career has been to get to AC, so I can guarantee you I'd show up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, with an A++ attitude and raring to learn!

I hope this doesn't come across as a riled-up rebuttal -- sometimes hard to express yourself behind a keyboard -- I only mean to defend us bitchers and to say that it took me aback to read that you're glad that those of us who are getting frustrated are still hovering over the phone. I don't think I have a bad attitude... I just REALLY want that job!!

Anyway, yes... end of the discussion for me. I'm pumped that this industry is finally picking itself up and dusting itself off... congrats to those who've gotten on and I sure hope to see you there someday. And good luck to the rest of you like me who jump each time the phone rings!

[disco]

I am squarely with you Gelbisch.

I am of the very same opinion - knowing my attitude would be grateful and upbeat at Air Canada even though I have some flying experience. I have seen good and bad attitudes at all levels of experience. That is a human condition more than anything.

I just cannot support the notion that you must hire green pilots to find good attitudes. In fact, I can't even go as far as to say that I support it as a generalization.

This alleged turn of events is....frustrating. All these years working toward what they have always told me they wanted from me...to get to this.

I can't help but wonder what the travelling public would think if the media chose to make this a headline.

"Should travellers choose Westjet or CanJet over Air Canada? Air Canada intentionally employs pilots with much less experience and qualifications than is available to them"



Boy they could have fun with that one.

[Jaques Strappe]

Whipline wrote:

Just out of curiosity JS did AC hire direct entry captains in 95?

Yes in 1995 Air Canada was hiring direct entry Captains for the RJ. You could be right in saying that a guy hired today could be in the left seat of the Embraer in maybe 4 to 5 years but don't forget, Air Canada, unlike other airlines doesn't just give someone a left seat PPC and hand them an airplane. I won't argue the demographic point, as I said, I only offer another possible expanation.

Confused wrote:

I fully understand what you're saying Jaques, which now almost makes me regret the path that I chose. I chose not to go for the post secondary education, in favor of building up some experience in the industry and earning some money. I guess hindsight is 20/20 though. My only hope for Air Canada I guess is when the pool starts to dry up a little, maybe I'll get my shot. Up until that point, I have come to accept the fact that not having a post secondary education is going to hinder my advancement into larger equipment. I gambled wrong when I thought that more experience would count for something, but I digress.

Don't count yourself out. AC does not require a degree, only University acceptance. There have only been a couple of classes since they announced a hiring, who says that if you aren't on the first class, you are doomed? I see alot of upset people on here venting about something that may be a mute point if they had some patience.

Gelbish wrote:

Back when you were hired, wouldn't you have been a little concerned if a bunch of less-qualifed guys were getting seats, but you for the life of you could not?

Yes when I got hired there were many guys less qualified than I was who were hired before me. I would be willing to bet that everyone has experienced that or soon will in their career. There were also many guys hired after me who were far more qualified than I. My F/O on the DC-9 one day was the Transport Inspector who did my initial multi IFR ride.

Disco wrote:

"Should travellers choose Westjet or CanJet over Air Canada? Air Canada intentionally employs pilots with much less experience and qualifications than is available to them"

Sorry Disco, I know several guys who were hired at Westjet with nothing more than Twin Otter experience. You cannot single out Air Canada.

Listen guys, I think you are taking this whole thing a little too personally. Companies change there hiring policies due to workplace supply and demand, demographics, changing technology or maybe because some new HR person wants to leave a legacy, I don't know. The fact remains that companies do this all the time and Air Canada is not unique this way. Jetsgo's only requirement was that you pay them 30 grand. Everyone bitched about it but I would be willing to bet the resume pile was stacked high. You have to remember that maybe only 50 people have been hired so far out of a vast industry and as I said before, the class I met, had 2 Westjetters, a couple of Jazz guys, a Zoom 767 commander and a few guys from CMA. I wouldn't exactly classify them as " low timers"

[Rubberbiscuit]

JS:

I guess I should have quit flying when I reached 2500 hrs to sit around and wait for AC to call, in order to keep my attitude intact!

[Legacy]

Clunckdriver

Well I wish you could knock some common sense into the people who make these hiring decisions there.