C series

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flyinhigh
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C series

#1 Post by flyinhigh » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:33 am

Wow, Westjet says they are basically useless.

The other says, forget you and orders 75.

Good news for bombardier.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e28779526/
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Old fella
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Re: C series

#2 Post by Old fella » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:09 am

flyinhigh wrote:Wow, Westjet says they are basically useless.

The other says, forget you and orders 75.

Good news for bombardier.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e28779526/
Pardon my ignorance on airline matters, but what will the C Series do for AC, that their new B737 won't or vice versa. Certainly positive for Bombardier and nice to see them being sold to a Canadian Airline.

Could the C Series be destined to Jazz or AC Express or where ever.
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Re: C series

#3 Post by FL410 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:28 am

They could be EMB190 replacements. The 737-8/9 MAX are quite a bit larger than the existing 319/320/190s and would leave a large gap in aircraft sizes between mainline and express.
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Mart
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Re: C series

#4 Post by Mart » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:56 am

As mention on the press release, the first 25 aircrafts will replace the mainline EMB 190. http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=984

Now the question remain, will the rest goes to SkyReg or Jazz will get it's share now that they have a lower B-Scale. I guess we will have to wait 4 years to find out.
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Re: C series

#5 Post by rxl » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:50 am

The CS300 has a seating capacity of up to 160 seats. The scope clause in The ACPA collective agreement limits the Express carriers to "jets" with a maximum seat capacity of 75 seats.
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Re: C series

#6 Post by hithere » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:07 am

There is a clause in the purchase agreement that allows for some CS100 to be substituted for CS300 "under certain conditions". Anyone know which conditions that would be? Either way, the CS100 still has too many seats to go to any Express carrier. Enjoy the C Series ACPA!
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Re: C series

#7 Post by Inverted2 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:09 am

I heard they are going to be operated by Georgian using the CRJ pay scale and staffed by TFWs from India. :lol:
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Re: C series

#8 Post by Old fella » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:11 am

Will the A319/320 fleet be destined to Rouge with the acquisition of B737
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Re: C series

#9 Post by fruitloops » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:20 am

The acquisition of the C Series aircraft represents a key element of Air Canada's narrowbody fleet renewal program and complements the acquisition of 61 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft announced in December 2013 to replace the larger end of the airline's mainline narrowbody fleet.

The Boeing agreement provides for Boeing to purchase up to 20 of the 45 Embraer E190 aircraft in Air Canada's fleet and the first 25 C Series will replace the remaining E190s.

Boeing 737 MAX deliveries are scheduled to begin in late 2017 and extend to 2021, while the C Series deliveries are scheduled to start in late 2019 and extend to 2022.
A big factor must be the $CAD - if you can ink a deal now in CAD vs USD, why not.
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Re: C series

#10 Post by bobcaygeon » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:24 am

Scope used to be 50 seats (with the F28/BAE146 grandfathered in).

On the positive note (for management) there will be almost 4 years for everybody to "Limbo" to see how low they can go.
Existing deals mean nothing as there are always contract openers and LOU's to be used. aka Sky Regional and Georgian jet flying as an example.
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Re: C series

#11 Post by Old fella » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:46 am

Well, with this acquisition combined with B737, I guess AC can indeed point to an up to date, modern domestic fleet. For that, I suppose one could say good show.
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Re: C series

#12 Post by fish4life » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:53 am

The one part that is a bit confusing is why they would want so many aircraft that are all the same size? It costs a lot more to have different fleet types with efficiencies lost due to extra parts / sims / pilots.
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Re: C series

#13 Post by TheStig » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:08 am

bobcaygeon wrote:Scope used to be 50 seats (with the F28/BAE146 grandfathered in).

On the positive note (for management) there will be almost 4 years for everybody to "Limbo" to see how low they can go.
Existing deals mean nothing as there are always contract openers and LOU's to be used. aka Sky Regional and Georgian jet flying as an example.
There is no limbo. The 10 year contract between ACPA and Air Canada signed last year has 3 re-openers, which can go to arbitration. However, having watched an arbitrator give the E175's away there is now language preventing scope from being an article to which an arbitrator can rule over.

If you think there are any conditions ACPA would negotiate away roughly 1000 positions, you're crazy.

I'm not sure where the sentiment that the regionals deserve a 'share' of these aircraft comes from? A 150 seat aircraft with a range of 3000+nm isn't a regional airplane. These will be good paying mainline jobs, this is a good thing for pilots.
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Re: C series

#14 Post by hithere » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:18 am

I overheard a very senior Air Ontario(Jazz) captain about two years ago talk about how the C series was "pre-ordained" to come to Jazz as part of some great master plan. Despite being a Jazz guy myself, I didn't share his optimism. In fact, I suspected he was full of shit then, and it was confirmed today.
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Re: C series

#15 Post by TheStig » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:24 am

fish4life wrote:The one part that is a bit confusing is why they would want so many aircraft that are all the same size? It costs a lot more to have different fleet types with efficiencies lost due to extra parts / sims / pilots.
The 737-8/9 seat 160-180 passengers. The CS300 seats 130. Air Canada will have 25 E190's with 97 seats and about 20 A319/A320 aircraft with 120-146 seats ready to leave the fleet as the CS300 arrives in 2019 -2022. If the economics of the CS100 work some of the orders can be substituted for them. Within 6-7 years this order leaves Air Canada (mainline) with a nearly brand new fleet of narrow bodies with seating capacities ranging from 130(110) to 180. All seem logical to me? There is some argument as to how big of a fleet is required before the savings associated with fleet commonality no longer make a huge impact. A319 fleet replacement at rouge is probably the next item on the agenda, I'm not sure if the 5 factory new A321's added to the fleet are any indication. It's nice to see Air Canada moving forward with a long term strategy.
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Re: C series

#16 Post by Fanblade » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:42 am

TheStig wrote:
bobcaygeon wrote:Scope used to be 50 seats (with the F28/BAE146 grandfathered in).

On the positive note (for management) there will be almost 4 years for everybody to "Limbo" to see how low they can go.
Existing deals mean nothing as there are always contract openers and LOU's to be used. aka Sky Regional and Georgian jet flying as an example.
There is no limbo. The 10 year contract between ACPA and Air Canada signed last year has 3 re-openers, which can go to arbitration. However, having watched an arbitrator give the E175's away there is now language preventing scope from being an article to which an arbitrator can rule over.
.
Sort of. Scope is exempt from any of the openers. So the current 76 seat cap at regionals is carved in stone over the next decade.

With that said, at some point there will be a fairly large order, of presumably 175's/crj900 to replace the aging crj100/200 and classic -8 fleets. That order will go to the regionals.
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Re: C series

#17 Post by ptc » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:31 pm

If CYTZ gets approval for expansion and the tripartite agreement gets altered go allow jets (non medevac) onto the island they could operate some of them from their
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Re: C series

#18 Post by Fanblade » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:41 pm

hithere wrote:I overheard a very senior Air Ontario(Jazz) captain about two years ago talk about how the C series was "pre-ordained" to come to Jazz as part of some great master plan. Despite being a Jazz guy myself, I didn't share his optimism. In fact, I suspected he was full of shit then, and it was confirmed today.
We were told that AC pushed very hard to get the 190 at Jazz during negotiations a year and a half ago. In fact negotiations broke down over it.

If the 190 had been transferred to Jazz, it's replacement likely would have gone there too I would imagine.

So not that far fetched except for the assumption ACPA would ever be on side with it.
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Re: C series

#19 Post by hithere » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:49 pm

ACPA never would be onside with it so yes it is far fetched. That flying is so dear to ACPA that they gave up the fight for DB pension for new hires in order to keep that flying
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Re: C series

#20 Post by rxl » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:44 pm

The Bombardier order is a good news story - period.

There is, from a labour relations perspective, a very clear line between Air Canada flying and Air Canada Express flying.
Like it or not, this clear definition of the scope of work is a cornerstone of the ACPA collective agreement, just as it should be for all collective agreements.
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Re: C series

#21 Post by scopiton » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:53 pm

hithere wrote:That flying is so dear to ACPA that they gave up the fight for DB pension for new hires in order to keep that flying
if you allow me : so many things are so dear to ACPA that they gave up the fight for a lot of things, including this PML thing about which the silence was deafening.

nice to see AC and Bombardier doing business together.
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Re: C series

#22 Post by atphat » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:51 pm

Why would ACPA fight the PML? The company can hire who it wants
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Re: C series

#23 Post by teacher » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:36 am

scopiton wrote:
hithere wrote:That flying is so dear to ACPA that they gave up the fight for DB pension for new hires in order to keep that flying
if you allow me : so many things are so dear to ACPA that they gave up the fight for a lot of things, including this PML thing about which the silence was deafening.

nice to see AC and Bombardier doing business together.
In all fairness there is nothing for ACPA to fight on the PML front nor is there anything to negatively impacting ACPA either. It is was ACPA wanted all along, bottom of the list with NO carry over of any kind. Those moving from Jazz anyway lose everything other than the wage top up that is provided by Jazz in order to lesson the pain of the first year pay scales.

As for the CSeries good on AC, the aircraft will be a game changer even more economical than the MAX especially when it is being paid for in Canadian dollars!
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Re: C series

#24 Post by Rockie » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:13 am

teacher wrote:As for the CSeries good on AC, the aircraft will be a game changer even more economical than the MAX especially when it is being paid for in Canadian dollars!
Citing an anonymous source the Globe and Mail said Air Canada got a 60% discount paying just $30 million USD per airplane. I would love to have been a fly on the wall at the meetings between Bombardier, Air Canada and the Quebec and Federal governments.
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Re: C series

#25 Post by Old fella » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:31 am

Again as mentioned several times I have no knowledge of airline ops, but going out on a limb here I would have to think fleet acquisition requires internal study by said airline to see what fits their future plans and how to fit the new aircraft into their current structure. I don't remember reading/hearing about C series fitting into AC plans until last week(correct me if I am in error) when announcement was made. Reading the political chattering classes, plenty fell into place(law suit dropped, bail out money, maintain agreement on new aircraft etc) which led AC getting a very sweet deal on what many would consider a first rate aircraft - Canadian made at that. I would also think a feather in Bombardier's cap as they can say their product has been purchased by the country' biggest airline.

Positive all the way around.
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