ATPL licence

[redlaser]

I think that the hours to obtain a ATPL licence should be cut in half, or 750 hrs. TC requires 1500 hours which is ridiculous, Airline type aircraft are flown mostly by computers nowadays, Pilots for the most part are computer programmers with little or no handling of the aircraft, What's your take?

[180]

My take on your idiotic comments? Don't feed the trolls...

[Oxi]

It starts with class 4 instructors, if they are being supervised then I think the airline industry will be safe.

[Panama Jack]

I am unsure on whether this is a trolling comment or something posted at the trailing edge of a late night of drinking but, OK, I'll bite.

Firstly, what is an ATP good for? Well, it authorizes the holder to be the PIC of an aeroplane requiring a minimum of 2-crew members. Generally speaking, we are talking about "large" aeroplanes, at least 12,500lbs.

Yes, aircraft are very computerized these days, but even in the olden days it had more to do with management and leadership than being able to manhandle a jet. Experience counts a lot for this- hence the two level grades: Commercial and ATP as a minimum to be involved in flying for hire.

Now, most airlines and insurance companies will also view the ATP as an absolute minimum. Where I work and where airlines are rapidly growing and there is rapid upward movement, internal policy is for at least 4000 of 5000 hours TT (plus having passed through the hazing of internal assessments) before they send you for the Command course. The list price of the fairly common jet which I fly is about $95 million USD, and courts have ruled that passenger's lives may be worth as much as $2 million liability each (multiply that by about 140). Those are the tangible costs, the intangibles may be considerably higher.

So, decreasing th ATP minimum to 750 is a meaningless excercise as it isn't gonna get you the 4th bar any sooner- airlines and insurance companies will assure that. Besides, it will no longer be an ICAO license- check out what ICAO Annex 2 has to say about qualifications for the different licenses.

[redlaser]

Tks Panama Jack for your input, but flying a Cessna around for 1500 or 750 hrs doesn't make for a big change especially when a person becomes a commercial pilot with 200 hrs PIC, Why is there such a big gap between the commercial 200 hr pilot who will also be flying passengers and the ATPL pilot 1500 hr requirement, Apart from the value of the larger aircraft , I'm referring to pilot skill,

[cdnpilot77]

redlaser, if you flew operationally, especially outside an FTU from 200hrs to 1500hrs you would very clearly and easily answer your own question. Training, you learn the basics of aviation, that next 1300+hrs, you really learn how to fly and operate airplanes to their (and your) potential.

[jschnurr]

Airline type aircraft are flown mostly by computers nowadays

It takes more than 750 hours to know when to take control from the computer.

[goingnowherefast]

What exactly is an ATPL? It's a license that allows you to be in command of a 2-crew airplane. That also means you are mentoring the FO. Plus all the CRM, and other resource management and team management involved.

At 200 hours, you don't know what CRM is.
At 750 hours, you start to become useful as an FO.
At 1500 hours, you start to learn what CRM is and how important it is.

[Meatservo]

Not to mention airmanship, meteorological knowledge, and common sense all increase as you build time- almost indefinitely. As well as maturity, authority, responsibility, assertiveness, aversion to risk, and all the other qualities that go into being "a Captain". If you haven't spent some good quality time in aeroplanes to learn all of the above, no flight-guidance computer is going to be able to save your stupid ass.

RedLaser, it is guys like you that are responsible for the denigration of our profession. It is guys like you, who have no clue what it takes to be a professional pilot, who make me feel like the ATPL requirements should be WAY HIGHER than they are.

Why don't you go get a job driving a hack, or pushing a hot-dog cart? Just try not to crash, or burn yourself. That takes experience, too.

[Panama Jack]

Tks Panama Jack for your input, but flying a Cessna around for 1500 or 750 hrs doesn't make for a big change especially when a person becomes a commercial pilot with 200 hrs PIC, Why is there such a big gap between the commercial 200 hr pilot who will also be flying passengers and the ATPL pilot 1500 hr requirement, Apart from the value of the larger aircraft , I'm referring to pilot skill,

As many other members point out, something happens between the 200 hours that it takes to demonstrate that you can safely fly an aircraft with fare paying passengers, and having 1500 hours. This "something" cannot be taught in flying school. It comes from experience and good and bad decision making in the real world.

The reality is that neither 750 hours nor 1500 hours in a Cessna probably doesn't give you the skillsets to be an Airbus Captain either. In fact, 1500 hours in the right-seat of an Airbus barely qualifies you, hence the reason why at my airline, the guys who were hired straight out of the academy to sit in the right seat on an Airbus with a bare-bones Commercial Multi-engine Instrument ticket, don't upgrade right after they get their ATP either-- the Company recognizes that it takes a little bit more.

But you are confusing industry practices and, in some ways, best practices with regulatory requirments. Usually, regulatory requirements are minimums and you got to start somewhere. The experience for the Canadian ATP are pretty much derived from the ICAO Annex 2. Actually, Canadian ATP requirments are more lenient than ICAO standards-- most countries will require you to pass a Proficiency Check in an aircraft requiring a minimum of 2 crew members (think "type rating") as a check-ride for the ATP. In Canada, your Group I rating in a Duchess qualifies you. Pretty low standard. But as I say, the regulator needs to start somewhere and he cannot customize regulations for every eventuality and circumstances. Some guys cut their teeth sitting in the right seat of a Cessna 150 instructing students, some guys are in the right seat of a Boeing 737, some guys are in the left seat of something on floats. Who ends up more qualified to be Captain of an Airbus at 1500 hours? My personal opinion-- NONE OF THEM.

[redlaser]

I often see in your comments reference to CRM, In my opinion CRM begins when you first start flying, when your instructor says " I have control" " You have control" So its not an Airline thing, its in every phase of your training, knowing what to do and when, and if an emergency arises, who is in control. Just thought I'd bring that up,

[Jean-Luc Monette]

I often see in your comments reference to CRM, In my opinion CRM begins when you first start flying, when your instructor says " I have control" " You have control" So its not an Airline thing, its in every phase of your training, knowing what to do and when, and if an emergency arises, who is in control. Just thought I'd bring that up,

That's not what CRM is.

[goingnowherefast]

Flight training teaches pilots to be independent and fly the plane all by themselves. Pretty much the opposite of CRM. Your first FO job is where you actually learn about CRM.

Redlaser, would you do here?
You are doing a VFR departure on an IFR flight from within an MF. Good vis and 2000' ceilings. You are expecting light-moderate icing, but you need to get through the icing layer to reduce the fuel burn on the thirsty turbines, plus the destination is 600' and 2 miles vis. You have taken off, gear is up, flaps are up, climb power is set, and now you are getting close to the cloud base and need an IFR clearance. The FO is looking a bit flustered, buried deep in the after-takeoff checklist and is clearly well behind the airplane.

Do you take the radios yourself as PF and get the clearance?
Do you level off and wait for him to finish the checklist?
Do you get mad at him for taking so long with the checklist?
Do you tell him to stop the checklist and get the clearance?
Do you transfer control, get him to fly, and now that you are PNF you can do the radios and finish the checklist more quickly?
You could also just enter cloud without the clearance and once the FO catches up, he will get the clearance.

By now, you are 6 miles away, accelerating through 220kts, busting the speed limit, and the FSS running the MF is trying to hand you off to center. With your 750 hours of experience, you had better figure this out quick. All your CRM "experience" passing control back and forth between the instructor is of real benefit.

[redlaser]

OK here goes, first fly the aircraft, level off at 500 ft below clouds, remain VFR, next slow the aircraft down to a safe operating speed, extend flaps if necessary, A IFR flight plan has shurely been filed so now I would have the FO fly or I could do both radio and fly the plane, call center to obtain the IFR clearance for a higher altitude, check deicing pitot is on , and other deicing equipment, is operational, once given a transponder code by ATC and identified climb to assigned altitude and proceed on route, if icing becomes a problem request a different altitude, did I miss anything,

[redlaser]

O yes, the FO when it comes to CRM has been assigned coffee duty and is making me a coffee with a touch of cognac. Aircraft is now on autopilot so both he and I can hang out with the air hostesses in the rear,

[goingnowherefast]

Non CRM issues:
1st fail: took you 5 days to figure that out. You've been on other threads, so it's not lack of time. By now you've run out of fuel
2st fail: De-ice equipment operational checks should have been done before take-off. Terrible decision making
3rd fail: The situation describes climbing through the icing layer, no need to request a different altitude once en-route, you are already above it.

CRM issues:
1st fail: handed control to a pilot that is well behind the plane.
2nd fail: interrupted a checklist
3rd, and biggest fail: by doing getting the clearance yourself, you aren't giving the FO a chance to catch up and he looses further situational awareness. Thus degrading your FO as a crew resource even more.

There's more than one way to address this situation, and I'm sure many would do it differently than me. However, you just demonstrated your ignorance and inexperience. Go back to your textbooks and stop wasting oxygen. Call us again when you have the 1500 hours for an ATPL

[redlaser]

Almost there ,did 2 hours flying my hang glider today so only 1485 hours to go for my ATPL, and I did .2 hrs with the hood on,

[Cessna 180]

Flight training teaches pilots to be independent and fly the plane all by themselves. Pretty much the opposite of CRM. Your first FO job is where you actually learn about CRM.

Redlaser, would you do here?
You are doing a VFR departure on an IFR flight from within an MF. Good vis and 2000' ceilings. You are expecting light-moderate icing, but you need to get through the icing layer to reduce the fuel burn on the thirsty turbines, plus the destination is 600' and 2 miles vis. You have taken off, gear is up, flaps are up, climb power is set, and now you are getting close to the cloud base and need an IFR clearance. The FO is looking a bit flustered, buried deep in the after-takeoff checklist and is clearly well behind the airplane.

Do you take the radios yourself as PF and get the clearance?
Do you level off and wait for him to finish the checklist?
Do you get mad at him for taking so long with the checklist?
Do you tell him to stop the checklist and get the clearance?
Do you transfer control, get him to fly, and now that you are PNF you can do the radios and finish the checklist more quickly?
You could also just enter cloud without the clearance and once the FO catches up, he will get the clearance.

By now, you are 6 miles away, accelerating through 220kts, busting the speed limit, and the FSS running the MF is trying to hand you off to center. With your 750 hours of experience, you had better figure this out quick. All your CRM "experience" passing control back and forth between the instructor is of real benefit.

Shouldn't you have your IFR clearance on the ground especially at a manned MF airport or at least with a radio? If you're expecting to enter IFR on departure (you are if the clouds are at 2000), why wouldn't you get your clearance on the ground from FSS or by calling Center on the phone even if it was unmanned? Sure you could pick it up in the air, but you would be busy enough why make more work?

[goingnowherefast]

So you don't have to sit on the runway waiting for the required ATC separation from the previous departure before you even get the clearance. In non-radar environments, it can be a few minutes. If you ask for and receive a VFR departure, you are assuming separation visually, remaining VFR and can depart earlier.

[photofly]

By now, you are 6 miles away, accelerating through 220kts, busting the speed limit, and the FSS running the MF is trying to hand you off to center. With your 750 hours of experience, you had better figure this out quick. All your CRM "experience" passing control back and forth between the instructor is of real benefit.

It sounds to me that the PIC of this gong-show who made all the decisions that got you into this situation is the one who needs, more, er, training.

[redlaser]

In the real world of flying we do things differently, in actual fact flying IFR is about the easiest form of flying, VFR flight and keeping the ground in sight is the hardest, ask any bush pilot, So have fun with your Microsoft flight computer maybe someday all the time spent on it will be of value in the real world,

[V2plus10]

In the real world of flying we do things differently, in actual fact flying IFR is about the easiest form of flying, VFR flight and keeping the ground in sight is the hardest, ask any bush pilot, So have fun with your Microsoft flight computer maybe someday all the time spent on it will be of value in the real world,

Ask any bush pilot VFR is harder? Why don't we apply this logic and ask an Air Canada pilot what his favourite airline is? Ask a Montreal Canadian what his favourite team is? Ask Notley if she thinks the NDP are doing a good job?

[AuxBatOn]

In the real world of flying we do things differently, in actual fact flying IFR is about the easiest form of flying, VFR flight and keeping the ground in sight is the hardest, ask any bush pilot, So have fun with your Microsoft flight computer maybe someday all the time spent on it will be of value in the real world,

Care to expand on your experience before you throw stones?

[goingnowherefast]

By now, you are 6 miles away, accelerating through 220kts, busting the speed limit, and the FSS running the MF is trying to hand you off to center. With your 750 hours of experience, you had better figure this out quick. All your CRM "experience" passing control back and forth between the instructor is of real benefit.

It sounds to me that the PIC of this gong-show who made all the decisions that got you into this situation is the one who needs, more, er, training.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. A hypothetical 750hr ATPL pilot has no business being PIC in a multi turbine IFR environment. Think 704 captain.


Redlaser, I'm going to just ignore you from now on. You've had your fun, now go away.

[redlaser]

You have no idea how many hours I have, whether I have 20 or 20 thousand hours, Goingnowherefast, As your name implies, that's where you are going, Happy landings!