Can I fly my own kit plane on a ppl learners permit?

[KGM]

So, I can see some of you rolling your eyes already, but club/school planes are pricy for solo hours!

I'd like to buy a well built kit plane and fly it on my ppl learners permit is this possible to cut down on these rental costs. Especially if I decide to go on to build time towards a cpl.

Anyone know if TC will stop me from doing this?

Thanks,

[CreatingLift]

I am not 100% sure myself so I did a quick google and search on this forum and this is what I found. Hope it helps!

One thing I am wondering...

I've got a friend who is building a homebuilt (CH750) and is wondering whether to go RPP or PPL when he gets his license. He was leaning towards the PPL because of 'more training' that he could probably use anyways.

However, he is going to need additional training on his specific aircraft anyways, so wouldn't paying more for an experienced free-lance instructor for less hours doing stuff like emergencies and (interesting) cross countries in his plane wind up making a better pilot than a 60 hour PPL on a 172?

Guys around here save money and use the loophole
where they start flying on ultralights (shudder) and
then go for their Rec permit.

Note that CAR 421.22(6) states that all ultralight
dual and solo time counts towards the rec permit
experience.

Then they write the PPL written - see CAR 421.22(3)
and they do their Rec permit flight test. Once they
have their Rec permit, they fly the @ss off a homebuilt
to build the hours for a PPL, and they do the PPL flight
test within 24 months of the PPL written, and it counts
for the PPL - you can use it twice.

So, if you have an ultralight and a homebuilt around,
you can save a bucket of money on your PPL. You
do an end run on the astronomical FTU prices.

From Langley (http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Page ... t%20Permit)

For the purpose of receiving flight training or undertaking a flight test, the holder of a Student Pilot Permit may act as Pilot-in-command of any aircraft of the category to which the permit applies, provided the following requirements are met:

The flight is conducted in Canada during the day;
the flight is conducted under the direction and supervision of Flight Instructor;
passengers are not carried on board the aircraft.

It seems it can be done, whether your instructor would feel comfortable giving dual as well as letting you go supervised solo in the plane you are thinking of is the real question. If it's a single seat airplane or one your instructor is unfamiliar with you may be out of luck. You have a student pilot permit (that is what you meant by a PPL learners permit, right?), figure out how your going to get a Rec. Permit or PPL and then fly whatever you like (whatever you have access to), whenever you like.. who builds hours on a Student Pilot Permit anyway? Isn't that for practicing stuff by yourself in between more dual?

Good luck either way, hope it works out for you!

[AirFrame]

The Amateur-Built Aircraft cannot be used commercially, so you can't pay someone to rent his Amateur-Built and go learn to fly. But if you own the airplane (or are one of the owners of a shared-ownership) you can indeed learn to fly in it.

[B208]

The Amateur-Built Aircraft cannot be used commercially, so you can't pay someone to rent his Amateur-Built and go learn to fly. But if you own the airplane (or are one of the owners of a shared-ownership) you can indeed learn to fly in it.

That's a bit of a grey area. I believe the wording in the CARs is that they can't be used in a "Commercial Air Service" which means you can't have paying passengers in them. Whether or not a pilot renting the aircraft for the sole purpose of flying himself falls under this category is up for debate.

[photofly]

It's not a grey area. It's not a commercial air service as nobody is being paid for any kind of transport. If the owner's rental fees include an element of profit then his or her insurance company will be interested to know about this "commercial" use of the aircraft but it's not commercial as far as the CARs are concerned. You absolutely don't need an Operating Certificate from TC to hire out your privately-registered aircraft to others. Even for profit.

However, nobody is permitted to provide flight training towards an initial licence or permit (therefore PPL or PP-R) other than at a Flight Training Unit except to the owner of an aircraft in that aircraft. So for this reason you absolutely cannot learn to fly in an aircraft that you rent from a third party, you must own it, in part or in whole, or go to a Flight Training Unit for lessons.

who builds hours on a Student Pilot Permit anyway? Isn't that for practicing stuff by yourself in between more dual?

Right. You can't "build hours" (under the usual meaning of the term) on a Student Pilot Permit. You can only fly on a Student Pilot Permit under the direct supervision of a flight instructor, and it should be thought of as solo training time, not hours-building.

Especially if I decide to go on to build time towards a cpl.

Once you have your PPL then you can rent, beg, borrow or steal someone else's aircraft and the hours you fly it count towards the requirements for the CPL.

[PilotDAR]

I'd like to buy a well built kit plane and fly it on my ppl learners permit is this possible to cut down on these rental costs.

If you're comfortable with the purchase and operating cost of a "well built" kit plane, have another look at a modest certified plane, I bet the costs will be very close, and the certified plane probably has much better dispatch reliability, and maintainability.

My observation has been that amateur built aircraft are best for people who love building airplanes.

[KGM]

Thanks for all the info guys!

I have a good bead on things now.

What's the difference between a 'Certified Plane" and a registered kit built one? @PilotDAR

[ahramin]

There's all sorts of paperwork differences relating to Type Certificates and Certificates of Airworthiness but for the purposes of an owner the practical difference is who can do the maintenance. While there is a long list of elementary maintenance that can be done by the pilot or owner of a certified aeroplane, all inspections and most maintenance must be signed by an AME that it was done correctly. With an amateur built aeroplane all maintenance can be signed by the owner that it was done correctly. Similarly parts going on a certified aeroplane must be certified, while parts going on an amateur built aeroplane simply have to meet the standards. Satisfying the paperwork for changes to the equipment or configuration of a certified aeroplane can be difficult to impossible, while no paperwork is required for an amateur built. Airworthiness directives are mandatory for certified aeroplanes, not so for amateur built aeroplanes.

So there is a pile of cash to be saved by doing as much maintenance as you are comfortable with and buying non certified parts for an amateur built aeroplane.

[PilotDAR]

So there is a pile of cash to be saved by doing as much maintenance as you are comfortable with and buying non certified parts for an amateur built aeroplane.

Maybe true, but do your homework well first. If you have the time, skill, resources and facility to maintain your amateur built plane, and you value your time low, a saving may be had. However, if you are thin on the foregoing, you may become dependent upon others for those services. You might be back to the type of service required to keep a certified plane going.

There are many excellent amateur built aircraft out there, and I would never knock those which are well maintained, and serve their owner well. But, on the other hand, if you are not ready to take on the responsibility of all the maintenance of a amateur built plane, you may find that turning up at the "shop" with a certified type - even if in the owner maintenance category, will see it through their maintenance system with a lot less guessing.

Really understand this well before you commit. I have seen a lot of "cost saving" non certified types which did not serve their owner's initial intent. It simply costs money to be safely airborne. Yes, you can do your own maintenance, and use non certified parts, but in doing so, you are not within a system which is long established to maintain safety. I'm not saying it's unsafe, it's just a different system, still with costs, just differently. I see many excellent amateur built planes, which fly safely and regularly, but I doubt that in the end, they are costing much less than a modest certified plane of the same capability....

[ahramin]

but I doubt that in the end, they are costing much less than a modest certified plane of the same capability....

It is certainly possible to spend as much money on an amateur built as on a certified: Just pay an AME to do all maintenance, any part that is available with certified paperwork pay more for those, and replace all parts on a calendar basis as they hit the recommended overhaul times. Honestly there are lots of parts on an amateur built that cost exactly the same to replace as on a certified one, like wheels and brakes. It's not possible to go the other way around though. Here's an example: your C-150's vacuum driven attitude gyros fail. You hire an AME to remove them and replace them. Total cost for the same 50 year old technology about $2000. In a homebuilt you throw the old gyros away and replace them with an EFIS for $1500. I don't even want to think what it would cost to do the paperwork to put an EFIS in the certified aircraft. $10 000? There are so many options available to an amateur built that are ludicrously expensive to impossible to do with a certified plane. When I total up all the money I've spent on my homebuilt in the last 5 years, it's at most 1/4 of what I would have spent on my certified one for the same maintenance.

Obviously if you buy a shoddily built kitplane of a type that the factory went bust decades ago you're going to have issues. You'll also have issues (possibly bigger ones) if you buy a boutique certified plane from the 50s that the factory went bust shortly after as well. In addition, the idea that you can take your aircraft to the shop and say "Here's my plane, maintain it" isn't a good idea whether it's certified or not. At the end of the day the owner is the one responsible for getting the proper maintenance done on any aircraft.