Pilot-In-Waiting

[Illya Kuryakin]

I see ads like this (there are two of them right now) make me want to hang my head over a toilet and puke! Seriously? The companies running these ads should be erased from a young pilots mailing list. As companies, you're maggots. Pure and simple. You're disgusting.
And, the pilots applying to these jokes......well, you're a big part of the problem.
Illya

[MIQ]

make me want to hang my head over a toilet and puke!

Please don't! Some poor pilot in waiting will have to clean that up...

[Mercator]

Exploitation, cheap and spineless labour( & management) is the hidden meaning of " pilot in waiting " programs.

The shortage needs to hit these companies hard. It's like a hospital hiring a doctor, but he needs to mop floors for first 2 years.

The only profession where under-employment (of well qualified kids who paid $75000 for a diploma) is encouraged and exploited by management to lure entry level jobs, cause no one wants to hire and respect $20 an hour labour staff.

To the employers - if you need pilot services you have to pay what we are worth !
Cheers!

[DanWEC]

Looks like those 2 jobs in question have popped up a number of times in the last few months. Hopefully that's indicative of not being able to keep the position filled- hopefully from people leaving for flying jobs.
My first job several years back was a non-flying position with a crappy company who gave slave labour wages across the board. I didn't know much better and ran away after a few months and a good head shake. People thought I was crazy for walking away but I thought I was worth more and I didn't like what I was doing for the industry.
It couldn't have worked out better! Not trying to sound preachy, but the takeaway here is that there are better options, just be patient and confident.

Work as hard as you can, but work at being a better pilot, not a custodian.

[Moesif]

And what do you guys see as the alternative? I'm one of those "fools" who's applied to some of those jobs and am seriously considering it to kick off my career. Your post shows literally no contribution and is just plain negative. Why don't you show us the vast job offers available for us 200hr wonders so we could stop being "the problem" in this industry

[Illya Kuryakin]

And what do you guys see as the alternative? I'm one of those "fools" who's applied to some of those jobs and am seriously considering it to kick off my career. Your post shows literally no contribution and is just plain negative. Why don't you show us the vast job offers available for us 200hr wonders so we could stop being "the problem" in this industry

NEWS FLASH!! If you "200 hour wonders" would STOP taking these "in-waiting" jobs, companies would be forced to hire you as pilots! Figure it out.
Illya

[trey kule]

You beat me to it.


Rationalize, rationalize. You want postive advice or the truth?
Anyone with a cpl that applies for these jobs is part of the problem.
Pilot in waiting is just a carrot dangling spin on rampie/dispatcher, dockhand/ slave.

You want positive Moseif. Tell me how your flight skills, all 200 hours of them, are going to improve by not flying?
Explain why these companies don't hire ground people.

Its because as soon as their pilots get some experience they are gone. Pilots who will fly for almost free, in bad weather, overloaded, and then cry victim when an accident occurs, or , if things work out for them, get a real job.

[goingnowherefast]

And what do you guys see as the alternative? I'm one of those "fools" who's applied to some of those jobs and am seriously considering it to kick off my career. Your post shows literally no contribution and is just plain negative. Why don't you show us the vast job offers available for us 200hr wonders so we could stop being "the problem" in this industry

NEWS FLASH!! If you "200 hour wonders" would STOP taking these "in-waiting" jobs, companies would be forced to hire you as pilots! Figure it out.
Illya

I designate Illya to be the new hiring manager for every single 200 hour pilot in the country. I do agree that these "in-waiting" jobs are terrible. However, yelling at some poor guy on the internet every 6 months isn't productive. Your approach is over simplistic, lazy and just not helpful. If you actually want things to improve, how about donate $250,000 of your own money to the College of Professional Pilots of Canada for some much needed marketing?

[trey kule]

College of Professional pilots.
How ironic that a pilot in waiting job person should consider themselves as a professional pilot while they load bags, dispatch, clean planes, toilets, and the bosses's cars....real professional.

At the risk of thread drift I don't recall the college ever suggesting only allowing pilots to join in they were actually flying planes. Might be a good idea.

And I dont recall the college ever suggesting any efforts to try and get the federal government to enforce the labour code. Or take some action on the piecework pay and duty hours for instructors

So what would this college of professional pilot's do to put an end to this practice of bottom feeding by employers and those that are willing to submit to the practice? I am genuinely curious how the college would try to protect the fresh new CPLsfrom agreeing to work in these conditions.

Perhaps, as an industry, employers will hire Iilya to prepare a list of companies not to hire ex employees from...that would be worth 250k.

Btw...I dont see much current news on the CP pilots website.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I designate Illya to be the new hiring manager for every single 200 hour pilot in the country. I do agree that these "in-waiting" jobs are terrible. However, yelling at some poor guy on the internet every 6 months isn't productive. Your approach is over simplistic, lazy and just not helpful. If you actually want things to improve, how about donate $250,000 of your own money to the College of Professional Pilots of Canada for some much needed marketing?

When there are no openings for teachers, they find other jobs. They don't clean classrooms or work at schools as custodians.
When there are no acting jobs, actors wait on tables.
Doctors, lawyers, accounts, plumbers.....name you poison....do something else till an opening occurs.

As Trey says......YOU people ARE the problem.
Companies USE you simply because YOU let them. If they need a pilot, and they have no pilots-in-waiting, GUESS WHAT! They are forced to hire a PILOT!!!! Or are young pilots too brain dead to figure this out on their own?
Dump on me with your wise-ass remarks all you like. Not only would I never deal with one of these companies, I'd NEVER hire a pilot who would.
THINKABOUTIT!
Illya

[altiplano]

If I listened to people on avcanada and didn't work here or there I never would have had a career...

As much as ramp jobs suck, it's better than sitting on the outside looking in.

That said, the ramp job I worked at post 9/11 burned me when a new CP came in... It went from promises of flight line to "get a bush job and come back in a year if you want to fly the Beech"...

You got to be careful and pull the pin if it appears you're wasting your time...

[awitzke]

Alternatively, by listening to AvCan I have a flying job. Many people here encouraged and pushed me to go on a road trip back when I was considering it. It ended up in a flight job, and 10 months later I'm logging MPIC as a Captain and 1000 hours. Since that time, we've also hired another 200+- hour pilot and another on the way. The flying jobs ARE there. They are few and far between, but the guy who shows up and shakes hands is the one who gets the chance.

[altiplano]

Alternatively, by listening to AvCan I have a flying job. Many people here encouraged and pushed me to go on a road trip back when I was considering it. It ended up in a flight job, and 10 months later I'm logging MPIC as a Captain and 1000 hours. Since that time, we've also hired another 200+- hour pilot and another on the way. The flying jobs ARE there. They are few and far between, but the guy who shows up and shakes hands is the one who gets the chance.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more on the road trip. Email resumes aren't going to cut it for a 200 got wannabe looking for a flying job.

[CLguy]

Illya didn't you used to work for Millard Air? The company that started all this slave labor Bulls**t back in the 70's and 80's. The company that young pilots had to pay to work for, the company that had beds in the back of the hangar where young pilots could live, for a small fee because they couldn't afford to live anywhere else. The company where young pilots were expected to clean airplanes, wash the bosses car etc. for no pay. If memory serves me correctly they had a large pile of resumes of pilots in waiting even though everyone else in the industry was telling young guys not to take the jobs. This just seems to be a bit of Deja Vu from your ex-employers operating days.

Why didn't you guys at Millard stop this sh*t when it first began?

[mato]

I think sometimes the industry slows down and the pressure is on to accept such pilot in waiting jobs. But today the regionals are hiring pilots with 2000 hours and less... You would have to be pretty silly to accept a ramp position when many of the 703 ops are struggling to keep pilots around. At the negotiations the ball is in your hand.... Bonds, ramp gigs are all a little closer to things of the past for low timers if they would just hold themselves to a higher standard.

[Illya Kuryakin]

CLguy. Yup I worked for Carl. But, I already had Racer time and never if the slave part. He'd call me, I'd go fly. Then go home. Otherwise, I wouldn't have darkened his door.
I'd hire a pilot who "keeps in touch" while working in a bar, or another industry till I had an opening, before I would touch a "I'll fly for free, clean the hangar, clean your toilet....."guy, EVERY TIME!
Illya

Isn't his grandson on trial for murdering his son? Me thinks there skullduggery about in the Millard gene pool.

[SuperchargedRS]

And what do you guys see as the alternative? I'm one of those "fools" who's applied to some of those jobs and am seriously considering it to kick off my career. Your post shows literally no contribution and is just plain negative. Why don't you show us the vast job offers available for us 200hr wonders so we could stop being "the problem" in this industry

NEWS FLASH!! If you "200 hour wonders" would STOP taking these "in-waiting" jobs, companies would be forced to hire you as pilots! Figure it out.
Illya

Truth.

Sadly some of these idiots will never figure that out.

[CLguy]

I'd hire a pilot who "keeps in touch" while working in a bar, or another industry till I had an opening, before I would touch a "I'll fly for free, clean the hangar, clean your toilet....."guy, EVERY TIME!

I won't disagree with you on that!

People like Carl Millard created this cancer. They made their fortunes by starving and abusing their employees and the employees did nothing about it. It is nothing new and has gone on for decades. The people who could have nipped this stuff when it first began did nothing except line up and take the lashings.

[JBI]

It had been a few years - I was wondering when Ilya/Doc etc. were going to bring up this issue again.

I am by no means encouraging people to work at pilot-in-waiting jobs. For full disclosure, I did, but first after working at a local grocery store and 'checking in' with the airline. 2001 was a great year to start an aviation career

It's not as simple as claiming that only pilots do this and the low timers are scum if they do so. Many other industries have similar-ish programs and all the other professional programs, generally speaking, have limited numbers of entry based on the professional programs - there are only a limited number of Teacher's College, Law School and Medical School spots. These spots are also super competitive. To be competitive to get into medical school, there's a significant amount of volunteer experience required in addition to good marks and good life experience.

-Teachers - after graduating from Teacher's college, very few get full time work unless they go to remote locations. Many are required to work/volunteer as an Educational Assistant at a particular board to 'get their foot in the door'. Others will work overseas to get experience or work at a tutoring location.

-Lawyers - in addition to the restricted entry requirements via law school, lawyers have to article to be called to the bar. The competition for these spots is fierce and not only includes grades but also life/volunteer experience. I know of a number of lawyers who were unsuccessful getting an articling job with a large or medium sized law firm and had to essentially volunteer or get paid minimum wage to article and then get called to the bar.

-Doctors - there will always be an undersupply of doctors in Canada. Nonetheless, not only is it extremely difficult to get into medical school and they look very highly on volunteer/life experience -i.e. cleaning toilets in South America, there is the requirement for doctors to be residents prior to being doctors. This goes from 2 to 6 years depending on the specialty and while they get paid a reasonable salary, they are indentured servants. I've never seen people work so hard as my friends who were residents. On-call 1 in 4 nights on top of regular 14 hour days plus regular ongoing exams as well as forced out of town rotations. I'd take working the ramp for a year and a half over that any day! On top of that, doctors who do not receive a residency in a specialty or location of their choice have to either decide to do an entirely different type of job or wait a year and try to match again.

In my opinion, there are lots of ways to improve how pilots start out in the industry - i.e. why does Transport make it so difficult to log SIC time on some aircraft. Does a PC-12 or Caravan need an F/O? No, of course not, but allowing a new pilot to essentially 'apprentice' for a year in the right seat while counting the hours (not 1 for 1 etc.) would be a great learning experience and add to safety.

Because of demographics - i.e. the baby boomers are living longer and not retiring, every profession has their barriers to entry and a certain amount of 'paying your dues' is required. I think it sucks. The best way to reduce that is to provide potential new pilots with an accurate representation of what the industry is like. We're seeing it with the US regionals now. After years of paying crap wages and the new 1500 hour rule, there simply are substantially less student pilots than there were 10 years ago. Now the regionals are offering signing bonuses and Endeavor even has a $23,000 a year retention bonus to all its pilots! If prospective pilots have a real understanding of what the industry will be like, some will choose to pursue something else.

The fact is, there will always be some form of paying your dues in this (and other industries). I made more working the ramp for a year than I would have instructing (and I could not have afforded a flight instructor rating at the time anyways) and more than I made my first year flying. Did it suck - you bet! But, to me that made way more financial sense than my other options.

[phillyfan]

So, let me get this straight. It's ok to work for a company which uses slaves, but it's not ok to be a slave? It's not ok to pay a bond, but it's ok to be trained by another operator and go work for an operator who bonds the other guys?

I personally see a big difference between "Pilot in Waiting" who is proving they are not a mama's boy and that they can handle the environment and a "Pilot in Waiting" who is paying a portion of their salary for training by somebody who almost certainly should not be training somebody else. I have that company on my list of companies I won't hire pilots from, regardless of what they flew there. I don't care whether they had a better "personal" arrangement with the owner, or not.

If a company hires pilots from the ramp. Good for them. If a company asks a Float Pilot to pay for 50 hours of training. Shame on them.

[Donald]

It cracks me up that Doc/Ilya and Cat both love Buffalo Joe and can't believe that TC had the gall to finally shut him down this year. Yet, he is the biggest employer of "pilots-in-waiting" in yzf, using them as flight attendants and courier drivers.

Then when they graduate to the right seat, they get to fly overweight.

Just like Millardair, it's only wrong when you say so Doc/Ilya?

[SuperchargedRS]

I don't understand how you can't find a job as a CPL, you're probably not going to be able to still live with your parents, but there are jobs out there, don't just look in Ontario, look WORLD WIDE! There are jobs.

If you can't move, sell real estate, bartend, sell cars, whatever and keep your feelers of there, working for Walmart wages as a CPL becuse someone dangles a carrot, that just proves you're not only a idiot, I can respect a idiot, but you have no self respect and if you don't respect yourself how on earth could I ever believe you will respect me, my aircraft or the pax who trust you with their lives.

[Jc150m]

I couldn't agree more with all this. Most low timers are ruining it for those of us who still have integrity and self respect. I get crapped on by some for not applying to these positions and get the whole atleast it's in the industry. I'd rather show steady employment on my resume all while making better money and hold out for a flying position then slave it out at one of these company's who treat low timers like scum ... How dumb are you going to feel when you get a interview and they look at your resume asking why you only spent 2 months at joe fukwads air service then quit, then repeated the cycle with 3 other companies ?

Us low timers need to stick together and need to stop ruining the job market.

[dogone]

Forty years back I got a CPL-night/day no twin, no IFR. At about 200 hrs I was offered a job crop spraying in a C188. Got a few tips on constant speed prop and how to land a taildragger , then
did some circuits. Next day did a few practice runs with water then started the real thing. I got this job because the owners had seen me WORK and knew I was responsible. Paid for my licence in 100 hrs of dusting.
I have seen dozens of supposed pilots to lazy to wipe their ass or to stupid to come in out of the rain. Not surprisingly most don't do well getting jobs. I expect a lot of aircraft business owners are sort of my age and had a similar start as myself. We all had to get our hands dirty and were not prima donnas. This probably is reflected in how new hires are treated. Untill all the new "professional pilots" are running their own business I expect hiring will remain the same.
When you new guys run your own business you will be free to pay new hire all you want.

[Minimums]

[quote="Illya Kuryakin
When there are no openings for teachers, they find other jobs. They don't clean classrooms or work at schools as custodians.
-Matter of fact, some do. Some don't though, and choose to run for our top political office instead. Oh wait...

When there are no acting jobs, actors wait on tables.
Some even work as stagehands, help haul out the trash, do all the running around for real actors, live with other wannabe actors all shacked up in a crummy apartment smoking weed. Some get a lucky break and make a show. others end up in porn, working at starbucks or go live under a bridge down by the river. They make their own fate. There is no difference here.

Doctors, lawyers, accounts, plumbers.....name you poison....do something else till an opening occurs.
Doctors will usually volunteer at an aid organization or some similar feel good self help clinic for the poor to get experience, cause their education was paid for, their parents are loaded, they visa's don't have normal limits, and they usual vote liberal. Lawyers often work as paralegals groveling over those higher ups at a firm begging for a job, working long hours for no thanks, doing their paperwork, fetching their coffee, just like a rampie does for a real pilot. ,

As Trey says......YOU people ARE the problem.
If we are on the topic, we might as well include those that are working as pilots, but not really. By that, I mean those that accept jobs for subpar wages, at a company that won't pay a proper wage. See just about any regional in Canada. I mean seriously, who the heck takes a job with 5000 hours of experience to make 35000 a year. Seriously? YOU people ARE the problem. Its part of capitalism, and it works.

Companies USE you simply because YOU let them.
Its life, deal with it or move over and let me by

Dump on me with your wise-ass remarks all you like.
Mike drop

Illya[/quote]