Pilot-In-Waiting

[Illya Kuryakin]

Some of you get it. Some of you never will. Now, go load those airplanes, and bring the KY.
Illya

[trey kule]

On a very personal note:

I have nothing but contempt for the companies that dangle the carrot in front of the desparate young pilots by pretending the job they offer is for a pilot in waiting.

And nothing but admiration for the young and desparate pilots who refuse the jobs. You are the real professionals. A credit to the profession. And will ultimately be responsible for increasing wages, and the respect the profession deserves. Even if the underserving benefit as well.

I will do the little I can, and I know other companies that will as well, to support and advance those pilots that refuse such jobs.

But the reality is, that until the destination companies begin to assess where and how an applicant got their experience, ethically challanged companies, and sleezeball pilots will join together to continue the practice,

It is just to much to hope expect no one would apply for these positions and the companies would have to actually hire pilots as...pilots.

I share your frustration Illya, but we can only do what we can and hope to make a little difference

End of rant

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Lots of preaching from up on those pedestals!

[radubc]

This is simply about supply and demand of flying skills. This is how it works:

1. If the sellers of flying skills, or pilots are many and the buyers of flying skills, or employers, are many, you are looking at the perfect market, where the supply and demand rules are working. In other words, neither the buyer or the seller can set the price of the flying skills. There is an equilibrium price where supply meets the demand.

2. If the sellers of flying skills are few and the buyers are many, the sellers, or pilots, can set the price.

3. If the sellers are many and buyers are few, the buyers will set the price.

It looks like the flying skills market is somewhere between 1 and 3 now, with more sellers, or pilots, than buyers, or employers. In this case, the pilots can't set the price for their skills.

Asking pilots to reject those positions is like asking the perfect market to act like it is imperfect (scenario 2), or asking the many pilots to act like they are few. It simply does not work.

In these market conditions, the rational behaviour of a pilot with no experience is to take that kind of job, and move forward as he/she gains experience. This means that most of them will do that.

When the market forces are shifting, and the pilots become few, they have more power and they will not take jobs like that. Those jobs will disappear and the pilots will be better paid.

[photofly]

NEWS FLASH!! If you "200 hour wonders" would STOP taking these "in-waiting" jobs, companies would be forced to hire you as pilots! Figure it out.
Illya

I'm not seeing any benefits to pilots.

If 200 hour wonders stop taking these "in-waiting" jobs, companies will be forced to hire career ramp crew, flight attendants, and dispatchers. Probably at higher wages than they pay "pilots in waiting". So flight attendants, ramp crew and dispatchers will benefit.

But the companies won't have any more flying jobs, and won't have to hire any more pilots. The pilots who were "in waiting" with the company will have to get jobs "in waiting" flipping burgers with McDonalds instead, until the company needs someone new to fly an airplane for them.

[Illya Kuryakin]

NEWS FLASH!! If you "200 hour wonders" would STOP taking these "in-waiting" jobs, companies would be forced to hire you as pilots! Figure it out.
Illya

I'm not seeing any benefits to pilots.

If 200 hour wonders stop taking these "in-waiting" jobs, companies will be forced to hire career ramp crew, flight attendants, and dispatchers. Probably at higher wages than they pay "pilots in waiting". So flight attendants, ramp crew and dispatchers will benefit.

But the companies won't have any more flying jobs, and won't have to hire any more pilots. The pilots who were "in waiting" with the company will have to get jobs "in waiting" flipping burgers with McDonalds instead, until the company needs someone new to fly an airplane for them.

Let's try to keep this really simple.
A company needs a pilot. They hire one. If they HAVE pilots-in-waiting, obviously they hire one. The one that's kissed ass best. Not necessarily the most senior one. With me here?
If they don't do the pilot-in-waiting thing, they hire one from resumes, interviews (the old fashioned way). The guys/girls that are in the area and have kept in touch have the best chance here. Still here?
Either way, a pilot won't get an airplane until the company has an opening.
A positive spin off of not using pilots-in-waiting is; the companies in more remote locals are forced to become contributing members of the community by creating employment for local individuals.
Illya

[awitzke]

If you absolutely can not find a flying job after looking extensively for one, go for it.

But I don't see why people go to a ramp job as a first choice. I turned down 3 ramp positions while on my road trip, because I had a set time in mind that I would be on the road looking for a flying job. It ended up working out, which was great. For some it may not. But don't be fooled JohnnyHotRocks, it's not just those up on a "pedestal." I was in need of a job and a paycheck but I still turned them down. I saw my license as qualification to fly an airplane and I was not going to give up trying to just that. Not after two years of my life and a hell of a lot of money to get there.

I hear stories of guys working a year+ as a groomer, or two years on the ramp at Tindi and still have no sight as to when they will get to fly. If you choose a company to ramp at because of their fleet, what's to say you don't find a 180/206/Navajo job.. go rock that plane for a year and then apply to the company you want to work at with a few hundred extra hours under your belt.

The majority of the pilots I work with all started their careers flying. It happens more than you think. Why? Because they all got in their cars and drove days to to where the jobs were. We have about one 200+- hour pilot show up at our door each month looking for a job. I'm surprised it's not more. We also hire a lot and don't have a ramp program... and one of those pilots who hopped on a plane from Toronto/Vancouver/Calgary, then drove 5 hours to hand in a resume will likely be our next hire. Hit the road, shake some hands and make friends. It will get you pretty far.

[photofly]

Let's try to keep this really simple.
A company needs a pilot. They hire one. If they HAVE pilots-in-waiting, obviously they hire one. The one that's kissed ass best. Not necessarily the most senior one. With me here?

Completely. But as a young pilot with mediocre skill and a long brown tongue, I will always act in my own best interest. What gives me the best opportunity?

A positive spin off of not using pilots-in-waiting is; the companies in more remote locals are forced to become contributing members of the community by creating employment for local individuals.
Illya

Yes, but I'm a pilot, and not from that community. I have sympathy for the locals, but not to the extent of disadvantaging myself.

[Moesif]

If you absolutely can not find a flying job after looking extensively for one, go for it.

But I don't see why people go to a ramp job as a first choice. I turned down 3 ramp positions while on my road trip, because I had a set time in mind that I would be on the road looking for a flying job. It ended up working out, which was great. For some it may not. But don't be fooled JohnnyHotRocks, it's not just those up on a "pedestal." I was in need of a job and a paycheck but I still turned them down. I saw my license as qualification to fly an airplane and I was not going to give up trying to just that. Not after two years of my life and a hell of a lot of money to get there.

I hear stories of guys working a year+ as a groomer, or two years on the ramp at Tindi and still have no sight as to when they will get to fly. If you choose a company to ramp at because of their fleet, what's to say you don't find a 180/206/Navajo job.. go rock that plane for a year and then apply to the company you want to work at with a few hundred extra hours under your belt.

The majority of the pilots I work with all started their careers flying. It happens more than you think. Why? Because they all got in their cars and drove days to to where the jobs were. We have about one 200+- hour pilot show up at our door each month looking for a job. I'm surprised it's not more. We also hire a lot and don't have a ramp program... and one of those pilots who hopped on a plane from Toronto/Vancouver/Calgary, then drove 5 hours to hand in a resume will likely be our next hire. Hit the road, shake some hands and make friends. It will get you pretty far.

This has got to be the best post in this thread. That is absolutely how I feel about this whole thing and my future plan. Putting as much effort to get the job I want by shaking hands and if it doesn't work out then ramp is my best option. I see why taking a ramp position can be seen as deteriorating to the industry and I think that's what most of you are concerned about, but as a personal goal, you just want to kick off your career as soon as possible and I don't think those opportunities should be completely admissible.

[SuperchargedRS]

.....
Its life, deal with it or move over and let me by
....

The kid thinks he's in the passing lane, sadly his stance has him broke down on the side of the road.

You ain't going to need anyone to "move over and let you by" when you're chucking bags and washing bugs off airplanes, the real pilots are logging flight hours and you're logging...bag chucking hours, you are a distant spec in their rear view mirrors.
Top it off you're cheapening your self and the industry you would like to break into.


[insert proper mike drop]

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Please everyone, if you cannot find a flying job with your 200hr license....DO NOT try to get a job in some other area of aviation! Don't load planes, fuel planes, wash planes or even look at planes. Please work at McDs, burger king or pizza hut. Eventually your phone will ring and one of our high paying regionals will offer you a job!
You newbies are dragging our profession into the gutter...it has nothing to do with those that came before you! If you didn't take such low paying jobs (such as the entry level airline jobs that formerly paid well until our unions screwed the not-yet-hires so we could make more money), they would have to pay you more! Now straighten up and fly right boys...I hear the alarm sounding on the deep fryer!

[JohnnyHotRocks]

And BTW Illya, I KNOW that your duties for Millard included things that would not be considered part of the flying profession...you cannot deny that!

[SuperchargedRS]

Please everyone, if you cannot find a flying job with your 200hr license....DO NOT try to get a job in some other area of aviation! Don't load planes, fuel planes, wash planes or even look at planes. Please work at McDs, burger king or pizza hut. Eventually your phone will ring and one of our high paying regionals will offer you a job!
You newbies are dragging our profession into the gutter...it has nothing to do with those that came before you! If you didn't take such low paying jobs (such as the entry level airline jobs that formerly paid well until our unions screwed the not-yet-hires so we could make more money), they would have to pay you more! Now straighten up and fly right boys...I hear the alarm sounding on the deep fryer!

This makes no sense, why would anyone able enough to earn a CPL have to choose between being a dock/ramp b1tch or working fast food, zero thought given into your statement, of course it's got a little poorly thought out shock value I guess.

How about these apples.
take a decent paying non aviation job while you look for a entry level FLYING job, this ain't rocket surgery folks.

Also if you have half a brain in your melon, look globally are willing to drive and shake hands, YOU WILL GET A FLYING JOB.


Come on

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Ok, substitute any job you like in there...just do not try to work in aviation unless it is a flying job!!

[JohnnyHotRocks]

And don't say zero thought was given to my comment. Much like most useless threads on Avcanada, at least 5-10 seconds of thought were given to my reply! Now I am done thinking for the week

[SuperchargedRS]

Ok, substitute any job you like in there...just do not try to work in aviation unless it is a flying job!!

Well if you're a licensed pilot yes


If you're a CPL, get a flying job

If you're a mechanic, get a wrenching job


If you're a CPL and want to fly for a living get a flying job, that simple.
For whatever reason can't swing that, get a job bar tending or in sales or something, long and short get a job, not the promise of a job.

[JBI]

I'd be curious to know when and where each of the anti-pilot-in-waiting posters got their first jobs and how they got them (name of operator? Did you know anyone? etc.) . Sharing stories of how you got started (instead of just crapping on the new guys) can be very helpful in looking for ideas outside of the pilot-in-waiting route.

Also, any of you over 60 and still working?

Again, while I'm not condoning the pilot in waiting route (it seems silly to spend so long getting your licences only to load planes) I don't understand the idea proposed that potential pilots should get a job outside of aviation. Seems to me if you're going to make more money on the ramp (whether it leads to a flying job or not) it would make way more sense to get that job. My ramp job in 2001 paid way better than McDonald's etc. and it gave me time to substitute teach - I got paid the same as a local.

[trey kule]

There seems to be a bit of confusion, Mr Rocks.

I, for one, see nothing wrong with taking an aviation related job if you can't find a job as a pilot, until you find one.

But that is much different than accepting a job as a "pilot in waiting". I think you are missing a rather critical distinction.
Maybe on purpose in an attempt to try and make a point.

"Pilot in waiting" in a job ad is a carrot dangling on a stick to desperate to work pilots who think it will give them a leg up.

Again, I see nothing wrong with taking an aviation related job while you look for a pilot position. but stop fooling yourself that you need to somehow prove yourself as a pilot by working for one of these slimeball operators.

Why do these operators hire PIW to do none pilot jobs, instead of dedicated non flying people? All those recommending this career path never seem to really consider it. And just as you can see from some of the posts, people will continue to rationalize it any way they can.

BTW. We are essentially discussing a disgusting hiring practice (my opinion). I always find that when people get backed into a corner over what is right and proper, the personal attacks begin. Age of people still flying? Duties at an old job? How someone got their first job. Regardless of the answers, it does not make it right, and is just another form of rationalization.

[SuperchargedRS]

Fair enough.

First job was flying a real estate guy around in a single engine, single pilot.

The guy knew some mutual friends and was sick of driving all over and burning time, worked out for everyone.

After getting my CPL if anything I had more interest and opportunity then I had time, perhaps having a background in sales helped.

[eastpilot]

In all honesty
I started off working a ground job at an airline / flight school.
There were no glory days, no matter how many times you listen to 80's records!
There may have been other options...... There may have been better options, or maybe worse???
However, I worked, learned, experienced the industry that In was suffering to be a part of!
Since, I have rolled thousand over thousand of twin turbine time, EFIS, Sched, Glass, FMS... All the good stuff, because I started flying a Mahogany Bomber, not a jaloppy 185 for some tweeked out knob in the woods!
I do not......
I do not... Agree with PILOT IN WAITING crap!
If you're a licensed pilot, you've got enough of a spine to suffer this much.... Suffer through it until you land a flying job! Working through flight school is different! Once you've spent mountains of money, yours or elsewise, you should not be relegated to "pilot in waiting"!
Stand up
I hope you all have the success I have had, without the delays and hardships!
A pilot collecting EI in the "midst of a shortage" is BS!
If you refuse to lapse your currency slinging bags, it will be a positive atttribute on your resume! (to respectable outfits)... If someone doesn't respect your time and effort of becoming a pilot... You should not respect they're outfit!
!

[shimmydampner]

Just when I thought the pointless monthly discussions about this dumb topic couldn't get any more douchey and pretentious, someone threw in a "mike" drop.

[fruitloops]

I was watching Ice Pilots the other day - episode was probably 1 year old, and the pilot in waiting rampie on the show had been there doing the sheet jobs for 9 months before he touched a plane, then got checked out for FO. Even after that, it didn't appear he was going to fly any schedule, they were just wetting his whistle so that he wouldn't leave quite yet, pure abuse. Might as well take ur instructors and instruct, lots of those jobs always kicking around no matter where you go.

[xsbank]

Rather than trash the companies who hire PIW, you have to admit they are controlling their costs cleverly - if they hired locally for ramp jobs they would have to pay more, provide shifts, holidays, benefits, treat them well etc. while having a hard time getting people to stay and work hard. High turnover.

Hiring a Wannabe, they pay less (or nothing?), get better quality labour and don't have to do anything to retain the PIW except make the occasional promise. Win win.

My first job was a dispatcher (loooong before they had to be licensed) but I stayed because I flew under supervision every freight haul or empty leg. I was actively being checked out. Sure there were promises but the checkout was coincident with my other work.
Problem was, I learned very early what every operator knows, a good dispatcher runs the company. You need good ones to make any money. I was a good one and so my checkout got stretched out until I quit, immediately got another flying job for another company with my store of checkout hours and now sit here typing, comfortably retired.

And yes, I worked until age 64.

[Tylerjohnston]

I'm a current 200 Hr wonder, working construction making a decent $20 an hour 45 hours a week Monday To Friday in Southern Ontatio. Sure it sucks, but it does pay the bills.

Not leaving until I find something flying.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I am just tired of hearing those who have "made it" complaining that the new guys are ruining the profession. That is not how it works. It is the ones at the top who need to make the changes, not the ones at the bottom who have so few choices.