Rex Murphy on Govt Policy toward Bombardier and Jet Fuel

[Gannet167]

Love or hate Rex, whether you get his sarcasm about the obvious hypocrisy of taking a fossil fuel burning plane to a climate change protest or not, he makes a very valid point about the East / West divide in the Canadian government playing favorites.

Ontario's auto manufacturing gets a bailout, Quebec's Bombardier gets (another) massive bailout (and hasn't paid back most of the previous ones over the decades), Alberta hits tough times and there's precious little we'll do. No one's accusing the Quebec aerospace workers of being irresponsible in good times. But Alberta oil workers are taking criticism for not saving for a rainy day. The PM says he doesn't want to "Cheer lead" for certain Canadian industries, but referee. Funny, he'll cheer lead for certain industries from certain parts of the country. He doesn't want to take a leadership role on pipelines - just for the industries that need what's in the pipeline (while we import oil from the middle east to maritime refineries). BC is about to take a kicking in softwood lumber. I won't hold my breath for a bailout for the loggers. Could it be because the election is decided by the time the polls close in Mississauga?

Of note, several well written articles detail how mismanaged Bombardier is right now, having screwed up many different major international projects. Normally, this demands some management change - particularly a normal condition of receiving big subsidies. In this case, the same mismanagement team is allowed to stay in place.

I am a big fan of Canadian built. I've flown several Bombardier products and really thought they were quite good. But at some level, a company has to be profitable - at least at some point in time, or it's not "industry," it's a government funded make work project. There's a good case for government getting capital/R&D intense industry up and running. Boeing probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for gov't subsidies and contracts either. But the time has come for this company to start making it on its own. Time to sever the umbilical cord.

I disagree with Rex on climate change. I completely agree with this article.

[rigpiggy]

Environmental protesters don't travel via private jet. Why do you care if Al Gore is a fraud?

David suzuki does and so does leo dicrapio

[Rockie]

Environmental protesters don't travel via private jet. Why do you care if Al Gore is a fraud?

David suzuki does and so does leo dicrapio

I doubt Suzuki does (he can't afford it), and Dicaprio is not an environmentalist, he's an actor. But who I'm really talking about are the climate scientists who actually know what they're talking about and the regular people trying to press their governments into being responsible.

[Flypilot]

David Suzuki does travel all around the world in a private jet.

[Rockie]

David Suzuki does travel all around the world in a private jet.

Whose private jet?

[Moose47]

G'day Rockie

According to dicraprio himself -

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/le ... nvironment

Suzuki can well afford to go anywhere in the world he wants to by private jet. His house alone is worth more than 8 million bucks.

[photofly]

You forgot - it's not what people consider themselves that determines if someone's an environmentalist, it's what Rockie says they are that's more important.

[CID]

Once in awhile I agree with old Rex Murphy but most if the time his opinion misses the mark and comes across very misinformed. This is one of those times. His head is quite far up his ass on this one.

[North Shore]

G'day Rockie

According to dicraprio himself -

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/le ... nvironment

Suzuki can well afford to go anywhere in the world he wants to by private jet. His house alone is worth more than 8 million bucks.

Suzuki's house is only 'worth' $8M if he decides to sell it - and then hes faced with trying to buy somewhere else to live in Vancouver. As he points out, he's lived in the same house, with his inlaws, for 35 years. And 35 years ago, his house wasn't worth anywhere near what he could sell it for today.

( Sorry, you're striking a nerve here about Vancouver real estate, and what it is 'worth'....my parents are in roughly the same boat as S - scrrimped and saved to keep the banks at bay with 18% interest rates in the early 80's, and now people accuse them of being filthy rich 1%ers...well, no. they are seniors, getting by on a pension...)

[Rockie]

G'day Rockie

According to dicraprio himself -

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/le ... nvironment

Suzuki can well afford to go anywhere in the world he wants to by private jet. His house alone is worth more than 8 million bucks.

Owning a $8 million house in Vancouver means he can afford to live in Vancouver, it is not proof he flies all over the world in a private jet. Similarly hating David Suzuki, Al Gore and Leonardo DiCaprio does not disprove climate science.

If the mission here is to expose hypocrisy why haven't any of you called out Rex Murphy? I can't find any reference to him objecting to oil industry subsidies even when they were drowning in cash.

"DiCaprio also announced that his foundation, The Leonardo DiCaprio Foundation, will be donating $15 million to support environmental-protection projects."

I admit I was wrong. DiCaprio is an environmentalist who puts his money where his mouth is.

[CID]

Rex Murphy has been a paid shill for the Canadian oil industry but as far as I know he's never received money for speaking on behalf of the aerospace industry. So why would I place ANY value on any comparisons he makes between the two?

Furthermore, if you're going to attack irresponsible use of oil, why attack the consumer sector that only accounts for about 2% of all the oil consumed in the world? It would make much more sense to discuss the auto industry, the government's lack of will to force change in energy sources for those autos and all those entitled "average" Joes who drive around in a a pick-up truck for no other reason than it looks cool!

As a person's net worth and earning potential rise, so does the value of their time. Ipso-facto, owning and operating a business jet makes financial sense and even national economical sense when you consider how many jobs these "rich" people create.

Alberta and their one trick economic pony, the dirty, expensive and economically volatile oil sands is in the dumper and this is just a sign of things to come. There are plenty of relatively inexpensive sources of oil in the world and the profitability of Alberta "extra" crude is based on the tenuous whim of places like Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia, the US and of course the middle east. Albert "boomed" and then they gouged (the shit out of Canadians) and splurged, and gambled and wasted their "heritage" and now there's nothing left but a bunch of bankrupt morons that were swimming in 6 figure jobs.

I would much rather have my tax money put towards alternative energy and development of energy efficient cars than back into the shitty "oil patch".

[Mach1]

CD....

Dirty oil? Could you please find me some clean oil? Your post shows you clearly know nothing about the oil industry except the propaganda handed to you by the environmental movement. Canada has the toughest environmental and labour standards in the world when it comes to extracting oil. Here you are, advocating we buy oil from foreign sources that have no environmental laws, just duping fuel onto the ground with no clean-up, and countries that have no labour protection, some going so far as to still be using slave labour! I know you've never worked in or even been to the oil sands to see what's going on there. If you put a shovel in the ground, you hit oil. Where do you think that oil is going if we don't extract it? I can tell you, it is leaching into the rives and heading into the Arctic ocean. It is leaching into the ground water. It is everywhere... and you propose, as an environmental steward, that this is better than cleaning that oil out of the sand and making use of it, then replanting the trees and rehabilitating the area after all that is done? Okay.... Now lets talk about everything that is made from oil; from the clothes on your back to the cell phone I know you have. Our civilization is built upon the petrochemical industry. Every piece of plastic, rubber and synthetic fibre you use is based in oil.

I'm all for alternative energy too, but there is not such thing as a free lunch. Those electric cars all run on batteries that contain rare earth minerals. They are called rare earth because they are rare on earth. They have to be mined. I supposed you are not against the strip mines to extract those material? I wonder how they will power the mining equipment? All those lovely wind mills... what are they made of? I think material needs to be mined, refined and manufactured to make them. Does all that energy get returned with interest back to the environment? Solar? Needs mined material as well. What is your answer to the problem? Do green energies just appear because we want them?

For a guy who is complaining about the money made in the oil industry it seems to escape your grasp that hight oil prices are an environmentalists best friend. The higher the price, the more incentive to create new and alternative sources of energy... the more economic sense all that R & D money makes, the more economical the alternative energy source becomes. The less oil the consumer uses because it's too expensive.

Rather than throw a jealous tantrum about someone having something you don't, why don't you try to understand the real point Rex is making. Alberta, an entire province full of people, has taken a huge economic hit. It's not our first and it won't be our last, but we survive them all because that's what we do. Most of us aren't asking for a hand out BUT, it is one hell of a slap in our face when a company, not a province, a company, is asking for and receiving a BILLION dollar hand out simply because of the location of it's head office. And don't tell me it's not because of the location of this company. There are almost 100,000 unemployed people since the start of this year in Alberta, how many people does BBD employ in Canada? We have special rules in Alberta wherein you have the lowest eligibility for EI and the shortest time to be on it! How is this fair? There is an inherent unfairness in the way provinces and citizens of this nation are treated by our Federal government based on your address. This is a historical problem. And by the sounds of your ranting, you are very upset that Alberta had an equal seat at the table for the last 10 years and we made a point of having that seat at the table. IF treating all the citizens of Canada with equality, that means everyone outside the boarders of Ontario and Quebec, is an issue for you... then you are beyond reason. I'm a free market person... and no company should EVER be bailed out on the backs of the tax payer. If welfare isn't any good for the poor, it sure as hell isn't something I want to support a corporation and I don't give a rats ass what postal code that company is in! If a company goes under, a hole is created and the next company will fill that void. That's free market.

The only thing I hear when someone like you spouts off about how easy it is to just switch over is that you either fail to understand the larger picture or you want us all to revert back to being pre-industrial... a period when we burned trees to stay warm and cook food... which causes pollution and carbon emissions.

[photofly]

They are called rare earth because they are rare on earth.

Point of order: they're not very rare at all. Can't put it better than the author of the Wikipedia article on the subject:

Despite their name, rare earth elements are – with the exception of the radioactive promethium – relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, or as abundant as copper. They are not especially rare, but they tend to occur together in nature and are difficult to separate from one another. (The word "rare" is an archaic word for "difficult").

Carry on.

[av8ts]

They are called rare earth because they are rare on earth.

Point of order: they're not very rare at all. Can't put it better than the author of the Wikipedia article on the subject:

Despite their name, rare earth elements are – with the exception of the radioactive promethium – relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, or as abundant as copper. They are not especially rare, but they tend to occur together in nature and are difficult to separate from one another. (The word "rare" is an archaic word for "difficult").

Carry on.

I think you missed his point. It wasn't that they are rare it's that they have to be mined and refined, which is not exactly environmently friendly

[photofly]

I got his point. But we should be clear and accurate and acknowledge that they're not rare.

[CID]

No jealous tantrum here but you don't seem to have a good understanding of the issue of "dirty oil" or "alternative" energy including other sources of fuel. The context in which Alberta oil is "dirty" is not defined by a single factor. The impact on the environment is higher, the cost of processing and refining it are higher and the final product produces much more environmental waste than the less expensive sweet crude from other sources.

Batteries and motors that use metals whether they are exotic or not, can have their materials recycled. You can't recycle oil. Keep in mind however that batteries aren't the only alternative. Hydrogen is a major contender. Internal combustion engines can be designed and/or modified to burn hydrogen. Fuel cell powered electric cars are also very real but not in mass production. People can have a hydrogen generator right in their driveway. Current technology also supports the "on demand" delivery of hydrogen using a tank of water and an electrical supply at the point of sale. Hydrogen powered engines produce....water. Very sustainable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hy ... -16528552/
https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station

With respect to your angst against a "company" asking for a bail-out versus a "province", what a heaping pile of bovine waste. Do you think a billion dollars will solve the problems in Alberta? Give your head a shake. And don't fool yourself, any Alberta bail-out will be going to OIL COMPANIES....not the province of Alberta. Oil companies who have already enjoyed decades of subsidizes to develop drilling and processing techniques, and exploration. Please don't try to tell me that Alberta hasn't relied on oil companies getting subsidies and handouts.

Some of the most outrageous handouts are by way of deals with the former Conservatives. Do a little investigation on how much money oil companies are supposed to put aside for environmental clean-up to restore the wilderness once production ceases. Then look at how that amount was whittled down to a small percentage of the original amount using all manner of creative accounting. Then look at how that fund (like the heritage fund) is absolutely decimated if the oil companies went bankrupt today there would be no money to clean up the oil patch.

The reality is that Alberta oil can't compete unless the international market price of oil is artificially held high. Alberta oil is unsustainable. The management of the revenues from Alberta oil have been squandered and the oil companies in Alberta have enjoyed all manner of government money (in the billions) while making no sustainable plans for the future from an investment or clean up perspective.

Oil is dying. Electricity and a hydrogen economy are around the corner.

[photofly]

Speaking as someone who's flown sightseeing over the oil patch, I can say there's an awful lot of Alberta and and an awfully small proportion of it is oil patch. If nothing there ever got cleaned up, I don't think anyone would notice.

Current technology also supports the "on demand" delivery of hydrogen using a tank of water and an electrical supply at the point of sale.

If enough people had hydrogen powered cars to reduce oil usage by any significant amount, have you given any thought to where that colossal amount of electricity to generate enough hydrogen would come from? And whether our current electricity distribution grid could cope?

[Moose47]

G'day CID

Yes you can recycle oil - http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... e-recycled

Cheers...Chris

[CID]

G'day CID

Yes you can recycle oil - http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... e-recycled

Cheers...Chris

Um...I actually meant the stuff you burn, not the stuff you lubricate with. Can you recycle firewood too?

[CID]

Speaking as someone who's flown sightseeing over the oil patch, I can say there's an awful lot of Alberta and and an awfully small proportion of it is oil patch. If nothing there ever got cleaned up, I don't think anyone would notice.

Current technology also supports the "on demand" delivery of hydrogen using a tank of water and an electrical supply at the point of sale.

If enough people had hydrogen powered cars to reduce oil usage by any significant amount, have you given any thought to where that colossal amount of electricity to generate enough hydrogen would come from? And whether our current electricity distribution grid could cope?

Yes. Many people have come up with plans to shift our economy to hydrogen but the oil lobby is quite strong. Imagine for a minute what a monumental task it was to create the current infrastructure for mining, refining and distributing fossil fuels. Imagine the resources that go into that infrastructure. Imagine how much you can recoup from that entire wasteful process if you use hydrogen. I can also tell you that it's not a great idea to pump fresh water underground to extract oil but the oil patch in Alberta pumps the equivalent of what the city of Edmonton uses in a year, into the ground annually and that water is permanently taken out of the environment.

Every plan has challenges.