Controllers asking airplanes if they are dual or solo

[photofly]

You might want to consider if you need a thicker skin, then.

Regardless of how you feel about it, the pilots who are asked the question - how do they feel about it? Or are you exercising your charter right to be offended on someone else's behalf?

[patter]

Yes photofly, I have discussed it with the foreign nationals. I feel bad that this is a part of their experience in Canada.
And thank u everyone for your input..... I have been pondering it, and next time a controller does it, I am going to reciprocate and ask them to confirm they are a licensed controller.

[AuxBatOn]

I remember during our ab-initio training and during my Hornet training that we differentiated between solo and dual with the callsign: 3-number callsigns were solo students. 2-number callsigns were dual.

I think there is some value to that as it cues everyone else that someone with less experience is around and to keep an eye out for that person.

[photofly]

Yes photofly, I have discussed it with the foreign nationals. I feel bad that this is a part of their experience in Canada.
And thank u everyone for your input..... I have been pondering it, and next time a controller does it, I am going to reciprocate and ask them to confirm they are a licensed controller.

I believe NavCanada's mission statement says something about "ensuring the safe, orderly and expeditious flow of traffic". Tourist experiences come under the auspices of a bunch of other, government, departments.

[SRV]

It has been going on at training airports across Canada for at least 20 years...it's called risk management and it's more than proactive, learn from it!

[DanWEC]

Yes photofly, I have discussed it with the foreign nationals. I feel bad that this is a part of their experience in Canada.
And thank u everyone for your input..... I have been pondering it, and next time a controller does it, I am going to reciprocate and ask them to confirm they are a licensed controller.

Ever watch an episode of Dragon's Den when the panel is unanimous in an opnion and the pitcher just doesn't get it? This reminds me of that.....

[photofly]

You mean like a board-game pitch? it's almost a sport.

[Gannet167]

Yes photofly, I have discussed it with the foreign nationals. I feel bad that this is a part of their experience in Canada.
And thank u everyone for your input..... I have been pondering it, and next time a controller does it, I am going to reciprocate and ask them to confirm they are a licensed controller.

The controller isn't trying to find out how cool you are or play whose manhood is bigger. His intention is to know how he should handle the aircraft. He's not going to handle a 172, any 172, in the same manner as he would talk to an experienced 777 crew. This helps the controller know if they need to keep an eye on, maybe help a junior pilot out, and probably not give them something complex. The intent isn't to stroke his ego, it's to help the controller help the pilot by knowing what type of customer the pilot is. Don't take offense to it. Not all pilots are created equal - and just because a guy holds the license and has the sunglasses, it doesn't mean he has the capability.

In the military training program pre-wings, where there are students from foreign countries as well, students have a specific type of callsign to identify them as solo. ATC NEEDS to know this so they can monitor the student more closely and not request or clear them to do particular maneuvers.

Think of it from another point of view: if ATC put a very inexperienced solo student in a position that resulted in him/her having a safety issue with the plane your family was on, you would probably think it would have been a great idea for ATC to know that they should've handled the solo student with kid-gloves.

Solo students often view ATC as the voice of God and don't understand the give-take cooperative dynamic between pilot and controller. They're often likely to do anything ATC suggests, even if they probably should decline due to ability or experience.

[Rookie50]

Yes photofly, I have discussed it with the foreign nationals. I feel bad that this is a part of their experience in Canada.
And thank u everyone for your input..... I have been pondering it, and next time a controller does it, I am going to reciprocate and ask them to confirm they are a licensed controller.

Ever watch an episode of Dragon's Den when the panel is unanimous in an opnion and the pitcher just doesn't get it? This reminds me of that.....

Perfect analogy.

Controllers attempting to provide better service are to be applauded. I'm certainly not offended when they give me more attention in my piston for weather than a jet might need ---

[Rockie]

Yes photofly, I have discussed it with the foreign nationals. I feel bad that this is a part of their experience in Canada.
And thank u everyone for your input..... I have been pondering it, and next time a controller does it, I am going to reciprocate and ask them to confirm they are a licensed controller.

Any controller under training and not yet licensed should have one sitting right next to them at all times who is. Bad comparison.

[linecrew]

Yes photofly, I have discussed it with the foreign nationals. I feel bad that this is a part of their experience in Canada.
And thank u everyone for your input..... I have been pondering it, and next time a controller does it, I am going to reciprocate and ask them to confirm they are a licensed controller.

Remember that not all pilots flying are fully licenced pilots, they could be flying solo under a student pilot permit. This means that they have not yet met the proficiency level of even a private pilot let alone that of an instructor. Keep this in mind before you make an ass out of yourself on the frequency as you've stated above that you plan to do.

What you don't seem to get is that ATC is actually trying to provide the safest and best service possible and recognize that some student pilots need to be handled with more caution and extra vigilance (referring to numerous CADORS reports). If this is all it takes to render someone's feelings hurt then their commercial aviation career is certainly going to be a fleeting experience...

[tower controller]

I don't know about the color code system not working "here" not knowing where "here" is. I've worked and visited a bunch of places across the country and it's used in an awful lot of places with varied levels training activity.

By the way our color code system lets us know if it's a student, a student with less than 100 hours, a licensed PPL working on another rating, an instructor on board, and if it's a flight test.

All of the students here do it, no matter whether they are ESL or not.

We did it long before we had ESL students.

Tc

[lownslow]

To the people involved with schools that do colour coding: if your confidence level in a student is such that you feel the need to warn others, should they have that airplane signed out in the first place?

[Rockie]

To the people involved with schools that do colour coding: if your confidence level in a student is such that you feel the need to warn others, should they have that airplane signed out in the first place?

Do you remember your first solo?

[photofly]

To the people involved with schools that do colour coding: if your confidence level in a student is such that you feel the need to warn others, should they have that airplane signed out in the first place?

Life's never that simple, is it?

[LousyFisherman]

I would just assume my flight plan was unclear and state "two souls aboard"

And think no more about it

LF

[lhalliday]

I've heard this a couple of times when the controllers wanted the plane to do something they may have felt a student pilot might have issues with. Most recently it was S turns on approach for spacing.

I've also heard controllers order students to land after half a dozen flubbed/unintelligible radio calls. That's another matter.

...laura

[lownslow]

Do you remember your first solo?

I do, it was a beautiful July morning at a paved uncontrolled airport in rural Southern Ontario. The plan was a somewhat weary but still dependable Cessna 172N but I forget whether it was the one with the climb prop or the cruise prop but I guess that's somewhat irrelevant when the airplane is suddenly 200 lbs lighter and I'm not actually going anywhere. It wasn't the best flight I've ever had, would be depressing if it was, but I was deemed safe to fly in the anticipated conditions.

[Rockie]

Do you remember your first solo?

I do, it was a beautiful July morning at a paved uncontrolled airport in rural Southern Ontario. The plan was a somewhat weary but still dependable Cessna 172N but I forget whether it was the one with the climb prop or the cruise prop but I guess that's somewhat irrelevant when the airplane is suddenly 200 lbs lighter and I'm not actually going anywhere. It wasn't the best flight I've ever had, would be depressing if it was, but I was deemed safe to fly in the anticipated conditions.

Similar to my experience about 100 years ago. There weren't six other airplanes fighting for space in the circuit or any turboprops or jets coming in and out either. If there were I would have been happy for the controller to know I was a solo student so they wouldn't depend on me to do something beyond my limited capability.

[lownslow]

Similar to my experience about 100 years ago.

It was fifteen years ago, Rockie. I was seventeen years old.

My point is that there are a ton of underused but still well equipped airports out there that perhaps we should be doing our training at. Maybe Katanas shouldn't be mingling with bizjet traffic on a regular basis inside extensive class C airspace and maybe having to fly twenty minutes to and from the practice area for every flight is just silly. Running that way is costly to everyone and the safeguards put in place in that kind of operation can result in the school turning out an inferior product.

[Rockie]

Similar to my experience about 100 years ago.

It was fifteen years ago, Rockie. I was seventeen years old.

My point is that there are a ton of underused but still well equipped airports out there that perhaps we should be doing our training at. Maybe Katanas shouldn't be mingling with bizjet traffic on a regular basis inside extensive class C airspace and maybe having to fly twenty minutes to and from the practice area for every flight is just silly. Running that way is costly to everyone and the safeguards put in place in that kind of operation can result in the school turning out an inferior product.

I don't disagree. However in the meantime pilot training is carried out at controlled airfields with a mix of traffic and that isn't going to change any time soon. If identifying solo students in their airspace increases safety then do it. As Auxbaton mentioned, three number callsigns are used for students in military flight training and it's a lot more structured than civilians training is. Safety first.

[photofly]

Similar to my experience about 100 years ago.

It was fifteen years ago, Rockie. I was seventeen years old.

My point is that there are a ton of underused but still well equipped airports out there that perhaps we should be doing our training at. Maybe Katanas shouldn't be mingling with bizjet traffic on a regular basis inside extensive class C airspace and maybe having to fly twenty minutes to and from the practice area for every flight is just silly. Running that way is costly to everyone and the safeguards put in place in that kind of operation can result in the school turning out an inferior product.

Yes! That's exactly what we need in Canada! More regulation of flying training! We will definitely improve training if only we have more safeguards, restrictions, rules and inspections. And more regulation is bound to save everyone money, too.

What a load of bullshit.

[lownslow]

Yes! That's exactly what we need in Canada! More regulation of flying training! We will definitely improve training if only we have more safeguards, restrictions, rules and inspections. And more regulation is bound to save everyone money, too.

What a load of bullshit.

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. Your text says agree but your outrage says otherwise.

[photofly]

No, I don't agree. People already have the option to go and learn to fly out in the boonies. The absence of a flourishing array of flight schools doing great business at almost every small airport suggests it isn't cheaper, and nobody wants to learn to fly there anyway, even if you (pretty much alone) think it turns out a superior product.

The only way you're going to make it happen is to regulate flight training out of existence near major population centres, which, funnily enough, is where most people want their lessons - near where they live.

[lownslow]

Agree to disagree, I suppose.

To undrift the thread, how do you propose to prevent multi-tiered ATC planning?