JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I am just tired of hearing those who have "made it" complaining that the new guys are ruining the profession. That is not how it works. It is the ones at the top who need to make the changes, not the ones at the bottom who have so few choices.
Don't work that way,
Why on earth would the folks higher up the food chain change?
If I have droves of CPLs, who have no self respect and will practically sell their mother to fly any airplane, are willing to fill my unskilled ramp positions for even less money then normal unskilled labor, why on earth wouldn't a smart business person take advantage of these spineless greenhorn CPLs.
Now if these new CPLs had a sack between then legs and just didn't go for the dangling carrots, well you wouldn't have this problem, simply supply and demand, as long as CPLs let themselves be treated as worthless workers, they will be treated as worthless workers.
This needs to be addressed and instilled at the flight schools and by instructors, sadly since most instructors don't know how the real world works and just a few months ago they were students at the same school they now work for, and many of the big schools' deans and upper management arnt even pilots, let alone care about anything other than their pay checks, this type of industry education will likely never happen.
Sigh. Great, another one of "hey, don't take a ground position" threads. Here's an idea: when there are enough jobs that all willing CPLs could get that would get them, maybe then recommend that? Or, what about the time when people hire from the resumes they solicit, instead of the random Joe Shmoe that just happened to be on the road at the exact time the company was hiring? Or, maybe when every FTU has a former graduate coming in to offer newbies advice and placement options?
The reality in Canada, as far as I can see, is that we still have a country where there are more pilots coming out of school than there are pilot jobs for them. Until that changes, telling people that they shouldn't take a PIW job is, at best, a potential disservice to new pilots, and, at worst, turning away perfectly qualified pilots just because they didn't happen to be at the exact place and time where a pilot job was. (And, to clarify, I'm not suggesting people take a PIW job blindly. Do your research, both before and especially after accepting one. Be like XSbank, and show initiative, and don't be afraid to jump ship. Know your worth, stand up for yourself if you're being treated unfairly, all that jazz).
Despite sending out resumes for months to places that specifically asked for my kind of out-of-school credentials, and despite doing the road trip, I didn't get a single job offer (or even an interview) for a direct flying job. The common refrain was "We'd love to hire you, but we just got a pilot recently". So, I went into a ground job, with very precise expectations: I'd be doing good work at the job that I'm in; I'd be looking to get out if I didn't get flying within a certain period of time or if I wasn't treated with respect. I'm fortunate that the company I picked (from the three options of ground work) is exactly the kind of place that values it when people put effort in, and, consequently, I'm flying well sooner than what I was expecting.
What really raises my ire is when I hear (or read) peoples' rants about how doing what I (and multiple others) did - which was, in essence, making the best out of a bad situation - is immoral, is dragging down the industry, or is something no "self-respecting" pilot should do. Again, once Canada's got enough pilot positions for everyone that wants one, you can start on your crusade. Until such time (which should be soon, if my reading of the tea leaves is correct), it's probably not a terribly useful position to be telling new CPLs (or even those working towards one) that a McJob or a construction job is a better idea than a job in aviation. I know it wouldn't deter me, but there's enough people that, upon hearing that advice, would just go "well, I don't really want to be a pilot if that's the case"... I mean, if that was your intent all along, good job? (you monster)
PS: For the record, the above shouldn't be taken as an endorsement of the original job ad. For all I know, Ledcor makes their PIWs ritualistically sacrifice goats or be condemned to a 3+ year ramp wait. Or they sweep you in a cockpit after a week on the ground. This is where that research part of looking for work is so valuable!
PPS: Come to think of it, regardless of the wait in a PIW position, the real test is: was the company up front about it? Do they respect their employees, and have some sort of merit or seniority based way of promoting them? I'd imagine that if those were true, then taking a PIW (or, really, any) position at said company wouldn't be the worst decision you could make. If the company abuses its employees and treats them like slave-ish labour, maybe don't work for that company?
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If at first you don't succeed, maybe NDB approaches just aren't for you
For a greenhorn CPL 9 time out of 10 that is a waste of time, you got to shake hands, this is know and has been discussed.
The reason you didn't get a flying job didn't have jack to do with anything other then you didn't have the tenacity to road trip, shake hands, network and not take no for an answer.
Sounds like you have it all figured out. One day I hope to be just like you. You should write a book on the ins and outs of the Canadian aviation industry!
Lol
SuperchargedRS wrote:The reason you didn't get a flying job didn't have jack to do with anything other then you didn't have the tenacity to road trip, shake hands, network and not take no for an answer.
Did you even read my post? I mean, this -
PropToFeather wrote:... and despite doing the road trip...
- is right in there. I did the road trip. Got the photos and the extra thousands of km on my car's odometer to prove it. I shook more hands than I can count... didn't matter, since I didn't get there at the right time. And, guess what, it was from shaking all those hands that I got a lead (and then confirmation, unprompted, from several CPs) on my current gig.
Here's the way I see it: yeah, the ground jobs are dragging aviation down (same way P2F jobs are, same way that puppy mill schools are, same way that the regional race-to-the-bottom wages are, the list goes on). Given the choice between a flying job, a ground job, and a McJob, I'd pick the first one any day of the week. Unfortunately, I didn't get one. And, I chose to work in a field I enjoy, instead of one I despised. (I also managed to make as much working ground as I did in my previous white-collar career, so, that didn't hurt either).
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If at first you don't succeed, maybe NDB approaches just aren't for you
How many km? If it wasn't at least 5 digits you didn't do a road trip, you look into flying in Africa or Indo?
As for a McJob, if you're over 16 years old and that's even on your radar you failed in life. After getting my CPL I still could have taken numerous jobs outside of aviation, in numerous fields, all paid well over 60k and that was over 6 years ago.
I know the government driven marketing lines that you can be anything you want to be, it's a lie, some folks will be successful, other not so much, it's more a quality of the individual and their breeding then anything else.
Also what "white collar" job pays the same as a ramp b1tch?
It cracks me up that Doc/Ilya and Cat both love Buffalo Joe and can't believe that TC had the gall to finally shut him down this year.
Well once again my name gets mentioned so let me reply.
I have only known Joe as a friend since the early seventies and I have never been in one of his airplanes nor flown with him, I have bought many thousands of dollars worth of parts from him.
Joe has always treated me fairly.
As to the Millards, Wane and I learned to fly together at Central airways in the early fifties and Carl gave me my first training in the Grumman Widgeon, however I never flew for him.
Both Carl and Wayne were very close and good friends when I was young but I never flew for him.
I did get to fly his Super DC3's though as I was chief pilot for the company that bought them.
As to flying over the age of sixty I retired when I was seventy and at that time I was flying in the airshow circuit for Breightling and Red Bull and held an unrestricted airdisplay authorization for Europe.
I did not have to quit flying due to age or licensing I just had had enough after fifty two years flying for a living.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After getting my CPL I still could have taken numerous jobs outside of aviation, in numerous fields, all paid well over 60k and that was over 6 years ago.
What???? You got your cpl six years ago? By all means, please continue to share your vast experience and job searching tips!
Are you saying you need decades in the industry to know how to find a job, or to know working for the promise (as in half azz verbal promise) of a job is a bad idea?
You're not actually saying pilots need decades of experience to figure this stuff out, stuff that most anyone with a ounce of common sense, could tell you?
But hey, I might not have been doing this for decades but I got enough hours and letters on my ticket to qualify for most jobs if needed, currently working a comfy single pilot job, flying good equipment, plenty of time off and I make enough to do what I want to do, no debt and a few toys to boot. You're right, never chucked bags to get here ether, I must be doing this whole aviation thing all wrong.
You were still drinking from your mamas tit back when you needed 3500hrs just for an interview for right seat on a bearskin metro. And forget about getting an AC interview without 5000hrs! Count yourself lucky. There were times when finding that first job was REALLY tough...
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:There were times when finding that first job was REALLY tough...
I can attest to that, I remember looking for my first job when to get a position as a Navajo Captain one needed 5,000 hrs. King Air drivers where 20 years in and to fly a corporate jet, well only grey backs could get those jobs.
Fact is nothing has changed in terms of breaking into aviation whether it be 1932 or 2016, it's always been a difficult task and will remain so. There are cycles of time where its less difficult than others but never easy. The simple truth is that not everyone that dreams and sets out for a career as a pilot will make it.
I don't agree with pilot-in-waiting programs as the company has far to large of a hammer over youngster looking to follow their dream. I also don't agree with other posters here that they should not work in a non pilot position in aviation. There is lots of advantages to staying in aviation as one works toward that coveted pilot seat, such as networking and building friendships that will pay off later in your career.
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"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
Another silly thread. Do what is best for you. I worked the ramp as a "pilot in waiting". Thank goodness I did.
edit....i now read the entire thread...and i have this to say....
to the newbies starting out. People love to tell you what you should and shouldn't do in this industry. Someone like Illya coming on here and pretty much calling you trash for accepting an entry level position into this industry. Just sound foolish. I mean...what would Illya really know about this "industry". He is a pilot of advanced age flying into places such as Red Lake, Pickle Lake, and the metropolis of Sioux Lookout. I'm not bashing the lifers in the bush but they represent a fraction of this "industry".
Its easy to get on the computer and espouse wisdom of what others should do. as Illya does.
As i sit in the high flight levels cruising around the globe...do I ever regret working the ramp? Never. Its a great industry for those who do what is necessary. The naysayers are usually the bitter ones.
But working a unskilled labor job is NOT a entry level CPL job, flying a small plane is a CPL entry level job.
And as for your "advanced age" bush pilot comment about the other guy, frankly we all should be so lucky to still be doing real flying and still have he passion, not just watching George in FLs, if I could get a job flying floats that had the same sched and pay as my current job is be on it in a NY minute.
Supercharged, one day you will wish to advance your career. If you are like most Canadian pilots, this will involve a desire to go to the airlines. You will take a job at Georgian, Jazz, Encore or Sky Regional because that is the only way to AC or WJ. Judging by your other posts you will certainly take a pay cut. Others on AvCanada will then begin to blame you for the downward spiral of aviation. It will be YOUR fault that the pay at the regionals sucks. If pilots like YOU just stood up for yourselves and said no to those wages, they would have to pay more. The thing is, you will be able to rationalize it to yourself. You will tell yourself that it is a means to an end. It is what you have to do to make it to the airlines, you will tell yourself.
When this happens, and I am willing to bet that it will, please re-read what you have said to those low timers who are trying to further (or start) their aviation careers.
Seriously, why would any company pay more to hire a local, when they could just hire a low-time pilot instead? Conversely, why would any low-time pilot take a non-aviation job, when their buddies who went the PIW way are now actually flying?
The reality is, there are simply too many low-time pilots to the number of entry-level jobs. Sure, some might be able to walk straight into a flying gig, but for the majority, the math just isn't in their favour.
So what do we do?
Well for starters, we can address some clear issues that will actually make a difference, like: why are taxpayers still subsidizing schools like Sault, Confed, Seneca, etc.? or, why can LITERALLY ANYONE with a reasonable IQ and dexterity get a CPL?
Sierra Nevada wrote:Conversely, why would any low-time pilot take a non-aviation job, when their buddies who went the PIW way are now actually flying?
Some companies use the pilot-in-waiting idea to dangle the idea of flying to attract overqualified cheap labour. Then make them work for 2 years with no chance of flying until the, now bitter, individual quits. Now they renews their IFR and have to start all over again. Not all pilot-in-waiting programs are this bad, some actually work pretty well. Most are pure abuse. It's just really hard to spot the difference when you are 19 and believe the world actually cares about you.
Jazz and Encore are doing a similar thing, except this time the carrot is a mainline job, and the pay is 15% less for new hires.
As a student about to graduate this spring I was really happy to read this thread. I've never liked the idea of working a Ramp job with 70,000 dollars worth of Pilot Training debt. I feel like I should be able to find some sort of flying job. However they kind of make you feel like you have to go earn it from the company first ('they' being instructors and teachers and general industry feel). when I tell people I want to start flying right away they usually wanna know what makes me so special that i think i can walk into a flying spot. Now I'm starting to think maybe strictly wanting a flying job is what makes me special and will help set me apart from the rest of my Class.
The pendulum of power is starting to swing finally in our favor, I have seen some pretty amazing things happen that would have been unthinkable even 5-10 years ago. To any newly minted CPL holder I strongly encourage to not set your sights so low when there is so much opportunity out there right now(add to the fact we are in middle of hiring season!). I myself was in a somewhat desperate situation a year and half ago and so much has changed even since then! Exhaust all other options before taking that ramp job and then even if you do don't stop looking and networking. I know it's a tough industry out there so only the ones with blind determination will be the ones who succeed in the end.
robert692 wrote: when I tell people I want to start flying right away they usually wanna know what makes me so special that i think i can walk into a flying spot. Now I'm starting to think maybe strictly wanting a flying job is what makes me special and will help set me apart from the rest of my Class.
People said the same to me. Low and behold I found a job (a great one btw) and a year later, multi captain, 1000 hours. It's doable just give yourself a goal and try to meet it. I turned down 3 ramp jobs on a 6 week road trip, like you had the goal to fly.
