Getting hired

[PositiveRate27]

Loopa, you've spouted this misinformation before and frankly it's pure conjecture, the AC hiring, regardless of what you might think will be 80% from the express airlines for at least the next 10 years. This is written into the contract, written, not some execs Twitter account, not a rumour you heard from your second cousins best friends dentist, it's inked into a contract.
How do you suppose they are supposed to get around this?
Next, it is no longer a cost plus arrangement between Jazz and AC which means the cost of hiring and training is built into what they are charging, in other words it won't cost AC anything to hire from Jazz, in fact, the more they hire from the first PML has big cost savings built in, so if you think that your odds are better waiting it out, I think you'll find it to be a long and possibly costly wait for you.

The contract you speak of is solely for Jazz's initial 495 movements. Right? It doesn't include EVAS/GGN/SKY. Those companies aren't financial liabilities. In fact they were created to become competitive in the regional market. The "word" is that another PML V2.0 will be created when the initial 495 movements have occurred. And the original reason for all of this PML was to make jazz more cost effective due to the salaries at the top. Right?

So making a career move based on a possible career at AC is at best, a speculation that you'll actually get there.

the Loopa has thoughts. Thoughts he must share in long form unedited. Facts be damned!

Pay is similar with other similar 705 ops in the country...

I didn't know 34k/yr is the 705 benchmark in Canada. Sunwing and Transat to name a couple.

Its been stated a few times, its not just a "word" or a "rumor". The second PML is written into the contract. There is a legal document stating that AC will create a second PML once the first one is exhausted.

There is no guarantee everyone on the PML will be hired. You will need to pass the complete AC hiring process. If you are not successful you can stay at Jazz with the ability to reach the top pay scale the previous generation enjoyed. It will take longer to reach but you will still enjoy industry leading benefits and working conditions along the way. All of this will be renegotiated in 2025 when the contract expires. These conditions could could change for the worse, or the better. The state of the industry will dictate that.

Those are the facts people should be basing their career decisions on.

[loopa]

Besides "rumours" there's no indication as to what the details of this PML V2 will actually be when/if it goes into effect. So there again, at best, this could be a hiring attraction for the regional airlines. Come here on the basis that when V2 happens, you'll possibly get to AC. Clearly anyone going over to any express carrier today is not part of the current 495-PML.

So to discriminate the fact then, I'd appreciate if you could direct a link to where this information is actually is concurrent. And since people are making career moves based on this factual information, there should be a public press release of the sort. Not hearsay on an aviation forum. Otherwise, all this is, is the promise of a PML V2. I don't know how long you've observed the airline industry? But promises tend to be broken a lot when the opportunity to make more money / slashing costs present themselves.

Honestly, for the sake of everyone at the express carriers and everyone trying to go there for AC, I hope I'm wrong. And I hope that the light at the end of the tunnel doesn't turn out being a train. I just want the message to be widespread that if you go the express route, be okay with staying there.

[anonymity]

My understanding is that a union contract is public information, so I'm sure you could find it, however this is from the signed agreement and leaves no room for argument.
"Once the PML has been exhausted, AC will introduce the FPMA which will apply to all of its contracted regional carriers, including without limitation Jazz and Classic Airline, on a proportional pilot headcount basis."
As for WJ, there is no union at either WJ or Encore and the current CEO has been on record stating that the agreement could be modified without consent, so it essentially amounts to terms of employment which are subject to change. Once Encore has finished growing and is staffed properly, there is literally nothing stopping them from changing the terms.
Both have risks, on the AC side it is only a guaranteed interview, so I wouldn't make future plans based on anything being guaranteed.

[indieadventurer]

As for WJ, there is no union at either WJ or Encore and the current CEO has been on record stating that the agreement could be modified without consent, so it essentially amounts to terms of employment which are subject to change. Once Encore has finished growing and is staffed properly, there is literally nothing stopping them from changing the terms.

The agreements in place at WJ and Encore are protected under contract law and neither WestJet nor WestJet Encore can "modify without consent" their respective agreements. Changes are permitted only through following the conditions agreed upon and laid out in the agreements through the use of MOAs, LOUs and involve votes by the pilot group to do so. If they stopped following the agreement the WJPA would take them to court for going against the contract.

[loopa]

"Once the PML has been exhausted, AC will introduce the FPMA which will apply to all of its contracted regional carriers, including without limitation Jazz and Classic Airline, on a proportional pilot headcount basis."

So when it says that AC will introduce FPMA, is that legally binding? Are there legal consequences if they don't?

Thanks anonymity.

[atphat]

As for WJ, there is no union at either WJ or Encore and the current CEO has been on record stating that the agreement could be modified without consent, so it essentially amounts to terms of employment which are subject to change. Once Encore has finished growing and is staffed properly, there is literally nothing stopping them from changing the terms.

The agreements in place at WJ and Encore are protected under contract law and neither WestJet nor WestJet Encore can "modify without consent" their respective agreements. Changes are permitted only through following the conditions agreed upon and laid out in the agreements through the use of MOAs, LOUs and involve votes by the pilot group to do so. If they stopped following the agreement the WJPA would take them to court for going against the contract.

In regards to The WJPA / WJ relationship. I'm sure they'll have a vote when they know it will go through. What about the larger more unpopular decisions? Did they hold a vote when they closed the port system? Did the WJPA take WJ to court over that? Or was that never an agreement. Not trying to stir the pot. Genuinely curious.

[anonymity]

Loopa,
I'm not a lawyer, but since it is in the signed agreement, I would say no less enforceable than the PML itself. The language itself could always be contested, it could come down to a grievance made by newer Jazz pilots.
To be fair, there is no minimum amount of pilots to be hired for the next group, just that it is supposed to be 80% of AC classes filled by regional carriers and the make up of those classes are based on headcount at each airline. It was explained that if Jazz was 70% of the pilots, then 70% of the spots were to be Jazz pilots.
Class of 20, 4 OTS, 11 Jazz/classic, 5 from the rest.
What does this mean, if AC turns down so many of the regional pilots that it can't fulfill the 80% obligation, I would guess the lawyers would take over at that point!

Atphat, good point, how was the "port system" set up, was it an agreement? I know it was a written document as to how it worked, so how was WJ able to just rip it up? Could they do the same to the "one list"?

[rxl]

Atphat, good point, how was the "port system" set up, was it an agreement? I know it was a written document as to how it worked, so how was WJ able to just rip it up? Could they do the same to the "one list"?

Interesting for sure, and I apologize for contributing to thread drift, but -

Which carries more legal "weight" - a collective agreement negotiated by a certified bargaining agent for a certified bargaining unit, or an in house agreement negotiated on behalf of an association of employees? Is there a difference?
I have always been under the impression that the court system does not "want" to become involved in disputes that may arise from labour relations issues, hence the creation of the various labour relations boards like the CIRB, OLRB etc.
When issues do arise for a non-certified body, for example WJPA, can they expect to have easy access to the courts for remedy? - and I say easy only somewhat tongue in cheek.

[tallyho]

Air Canada has opened their portal for pilot applications. How does this fit in with the PML? Is the list already exhausted? Is it just to beef up the hiring pool?

[MeAndMrPenguin]

By my count AC has hired about 200 Jazzers, Now, They need to hire the rest but some are saying no and some are deferring. This means that future courses may have more than %20 OTS. They have over 700 applications since March 01. I heard that resumes are sorted based on the amount of items you can check off in the application. The posting will close as advised so get on it.

Last group got a smattering of positions across the 3 major bases.

[rudder]

AC obliged to make not less than 495 offers to Jazzers under the terms of PMLv1.0

My guess is that 495 offers will be made. Not one more, or one less. Some deferrals will ultimately decline and some offers were converted to Jazz severance option. Therefore, the number of Jazz pilots joining AC under PMLv1.0 will in all likelihood be less than 495.

Deferrals are not affecting rate of departures to AC. The departed pilots are simply less senior due to the deferrals. Interviews are now well in to the bottom 1/3rd of the Jazz seniority list.

There is no reason to believe that the 80% Jazz quota per PIT course in 2016 will not be met. There is no supply side problem.

[Rowdy]

Looking through the jazz seniority list, I concur, they are well into the bottom 1/3 now.. More deferrals than I had thought would happen. I now wonder how many will ultimately decline when their 2 years are up or they are pushed to decide. Are some simply waiting for better seniority at AC via this experiment?

Its been an interesting venture to watch.

[rudder]

The 'deferral' provision is not part of the PML but rather is a provision of the ACPA collective agreement. The ability to defer a PIT course offer up to two years with reserved seniority applies to ANY pilot offered a job at AC including OTS and any other Express pilot.

Reasons for deferral seem as varied as the length of the deferrals. Seems to be a personal choice. However, the entitlement to convert the FIP in to a severance payment is a feature available only to the Jazz pilots via the PMA. Perhaps that was the sole intent of some of the Jazz PML subscribers. Some have already done so and perhaps more will in the future therefore forfeiting their reserved seniority number at AC.

Thus far the administration of seniority issues associated with deferrals seem to have been well managed. Both parties to the ACPA collective agreement have been firm in their application of this provision and are making it clear that individual challenges will receive no support.

[THLC]

I heard that resumes are sorted based on the amount of items you can check off in the application. The posting will close as advised so get on it.

I applied a few weeks ago. I met (and/or exceeded) all the requirements except for having an ATPL, which arrived in the mail the day after the job posting closed. I have since updated my resume on my profile but the question which asks what licence I have was not available for an update (it must be specific to the job ad).

I would guess that I'm out of luck this time around. Based on those questions alone I bet my application will stay in the unqualified pile for now.

Does anyone have some advice on this?

[Jimmybuffet]

I'm hoping they will go through all the 705/degree people, and then move on to the "lower class" no degree, no 705....otherwise I'll be SOL! 4 years ago I knew more people who got on with only 704 time, and low MPIC at that. Times are a changin

[MeAndMrPenguin]

Pick up the phone and find out who is the pilot hiring manager. Call them directly and tell them. Otherwise, try being creative. Fed Ex this update directly to that person with a quick note that you don't wanna miss out.

[SAR_YQQ]

AC doesn't use humans for the initial name draw. All based on a computerized selection - what you select on the application gives you a scoring. When they are ready to interview 200 applicants, they get a list of the top 200 names - as generated by the software. Good luck.