No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Old fella »

Eight pages already. Keep it going chaps as it is the only source of entertainment on this whole blog site, reading the " have at'er" commentary from the regulars on this thread. Honestly, it gets more entertaining as the number of pages increase....

:lol: :D
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777longhaul
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 777longhaul »

Glad you find it entertaining. If....you get bored of it, (doesn't seem you do, as you keep coming back) there is a great deal of other discrimination cases to read about, except for the "other employee's of AC" that were not represented, by the boot prints on the FP60's back's, from acpa.

But acpa, did not discriminate when it came to taking all of our union dues each and every month, just in-case you wanted to know some facts.
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Old fella »

777longhaul wrote:Glad you find it entertaining............
Well, I am delighted to hear that. Carry on!
:partyman:
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Duke p
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Duke p »

777longhaul wrote:Glad you find it entertaining. If....you get bored of it, (doesn't seem you do, as you keep coming back) there is a great deal of other discrimination cases to read about, except for the "other employee's of AC" that were not represented, by the boot prints on the FP60's back's, from acpa.

But acpa, did not discriminate when it came to taking all of our union dues each and every month, just in-case you wanted to know some facts.
Yes...."boot prints on FP60's back".........this thread is hilariously entertaining.....

I'm almost going to miss it......almost. :wink:

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snag
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by snag »

In latest news:

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Rockie
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Rockie »

Ah_yeah wrote:Rockie, you're right but I bet you hold the FP60 group blameless in the said state of acpa pilot affairs.
Not at all, because the disgraceful way ACPA handled the discrimination issue is just one of many, many things wrong with this organization and group for which we are all responsible for over the years. However taking the retirement issue in isolation, ACPA and the pilots who supported it own that one completely.
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Ah_yeah
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Ah_yeah »

Rockie wrote:
Ah_yeah wrote:Rockie, you're right but I bet you hold the FP60 group blameless in the said state of acpa pilot affairs.
Not at all, because the disgraceful way ACPA handled the discrimination issue is just one of many, many things wrong with this organization and group for which we are all responsible for over the years. However taking the retirement issue in isolation, ACPA and the pilots who supported it own that one completely.
You're on to something Rockie. The current state of affairs is embarrassing and the travails of the FP60 group are a result of basic human selfishness. I'm not laying that load on FP 60 either. As you well know the gap between haves and have-nots at AC is very wide. If, for example, our new hire wawcon was anything near fair maybe there would have been more sympathy for pilots returning or staying beyond 60. Leave legal rulings aside...please, just try this for a minute and you'll see the merit of that fact.
Class warfare, however carefully hidden, is alive and well, witness this battle alone. The basic issue that starting wages are barely livable at most of the crew bases is everybody's responsibility and is directly tied to why nobody gave a crap about the cries from FP60 from the beginning. It's all connected. Those that fought against FP60 are not arseholes like some would have you believe. It's just that commuting for 50k/year with a family back home leaves guys with their own worries. ( Save the shit that they had a choice and knew the wawcon before accepting the job). ALL ACPA pilots, past and present, should wear a bag over their heads for state of affairs.
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Rockie
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Rockie »

Ah_yeah wrote:Class warfare, however carefully hidden, is alive and well, witness this battle alone. The basic issue that starting wages are barely livable at most of the crew bases is everybody's responsibility and is directly tied to why nobody gave a crap about the cries from FP60 from the beginning. It's all connected.
Yes to the class warfare as you call it - the "I did it so now it's my turn at the trough" sentiment is alive and well. The reason starting salary is so low and 777 salaries are so high is because we made it that way. That isn't about to change because people who suffered are now reaping the benefits of that suffering and aren't about to throw it away out of fairness. How you fix such a deeply entrenched system is the million dollar question though.

It doesn't matter if anybody gives a crap about the cries from the FP60 group however, what matters is reality and the law. The inequities of the pay system do not give us a free pass from reality or the law, and that's where people who fought the change hurt us all. Ageism is discriminatory according to contemporary social values and the law - period. Being pissed off at a group of pilots doesn't excuse us from the law nor does it justify extending a discriminatory practice as long as possible for our own benefit or as punishment. It just doesn't. Ignoring reality also prevented us from taking steps to reap whatever immediate savings were realized from this change and as we know - and as we were repeatedly warned would happen - the company got 100% of the millions. We got the square root of f**k-all because we chose being mad over being smart.
Ah_yeah wrote:Those that fought against FP60 are not arseholes like some would have you believe.
It wasn't the junior pilots who chose the route ACPA took, it was ACPA. ACPA then conned the junior guys into supporting their position. If you don't believe me go back to the beginning and read the question the union put to the membership. Then look at the names comprising the union's Age 60 committee...do any of them look junior to you? Then look at where those people are today.

The junior people who supported the union's actions were conned and ill-informed. For the most part they are not "arseholes" as you put it, but it is incumbent on every one of us whether we are junior, senior, young or old to inform ourselves. Failure to do that is not an excuse. As well ignoring reality when it's staring you in the face yelling at you to pay attention is a stupid choice that many of us willingly took.

Then there is the other category of people who were fully aware of everything and still chose to perpetuate a blatantly discriminatory practice against their own members for their own individual benefit. What would you call those people?
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43S/172E
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by 43S/172E »

:smt014
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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

43S/172E wrote:Now that this very divisive thread is now being put to the dust pan of history in which where it now belongs I would like to add a few thoughts on it. ... Anyways it is now over you can fly to 65 enjoy your career make the most of it.
Sorry to disappoint you, but there are over 100 pilots who are still waiting for their hearing before the Tribunal. The issue is not dead. So how about if you save your slanderous gloating for another day?
43S/172E wrote:Over coffee with a lawyer friend the other day I was told a very interesting story on how when the case went back to the C.H.R.T. (minor win for FP 60) there was around 16 pages written by the judge stating wait for this that the younger pilots would be unfairly discriminated by age.
Your "lawyer friend" needs to check his "facts" before making statements to others. All the decisions by the Tribunal and the courts are made public, and if there were such a 16 pages, undoubtedly we would have seen them by now, or at least I would know about them.
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pigboat
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by pigboat »

Raymond

Any guess as to the time frame for the hearings on the remaining 100? The years without a final resolution just keep slipping away. Twenty years on the A.O. lawsuit! It is hard to believe just how long the process can drag on without a final decision!

Regards
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tailgunner
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by tailgunner »

Raymond,
Do you have the final award of costs that the FP60 group owes AC and ACPA?
I would venture that some of the enthusiasm of said members may ebb when they realize that they may have to sign a cheque over to ACPA and AC.....
As always, have a great day.....
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Don't bother Ray, he's busy updating the website. :roll:

'It's not pining'!
'It's passed on!
This case is no more!
It has ceased to be!
'It's expired and gone to meet its maker!
'It's a stiff!
Bereft of life
It rests in peace!
If you hadn't nailed it to the perch it'd be pushing up the daisies!
'It's metabolic processes are now history!
'It's off the twig!
It's kicked the bucket
'It's shuffled off 'its mortal coil
Run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!!
THIS IS AN EX-CHRC CASE!!
:lol:
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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

pigboat wrote:Raymond Any guess as to the time frame for the hearings on the remaining 100? The years without a final resolution just keep slipping away. Twenty years on the A.O. lawsuit! It is hard to believe just how long the process can drag on without a final decision! Regards
The issue is currently being dealt with by the Tribunal. We should be able to get an accurate estimate within the next month.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

tailgunner wrote:Raymond,
Do you have the final award of costs that the FP60 group owes AC and ACPA?
I would venture that some of the enthusiasm of said members may ebb when they realize that they may have to sign a cheque over to ACPA and AC.....
As always, have a great day.....
Yes I do. It is so small that it is insignificant. It is nothing in comparison to the potential liability of Air Canada and ACPA to an adverse outcome before the Tribunal.
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:Don't bother Ray, he's busy updating the website. :roll:
Robert Townsend wrote:HUBRIS, THE SIN OF
In business, as elsewhere, hubris is the unforgivable sin of acting cocky when things are going well. As the Greeks tiresomely told us, Hubris is followed inexorably and inevitably by Nemesis.
-- Published in his game-changing book, "Up The Organization."
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Bede »

Hi Ray
What facts are different in the cases of the other 100 or so complainants that would lead you to belive the outcome will be different than the outcome of the recently concluded cases?
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by ahramin »

Bede, my hope would be that even with the same facts the process will be different and lead to a more satisfactory outcome.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: No Clear Winner in FCA Mandatory Retirement Decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

Bede wrote:What facts are different in the cases of the other 100 or so complainants that would lead you to belive the outcome will be different than the outcome of the recently concluded cases?
Sorry to disappoint you, but my participation here is solely to assist in the understanding of the process, not to engage in legal argument.

You could likely get the answer to your question by attending the hearings.
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