Defueling aircraft in hanger

[photofly]

Sure, it is a calculated risk to bungee jump from a bridge yet all bungee jump companies make you sign a waiver so you can't sue and your personal insurance company won't cover anything should the 1 in a million bungee snap happen. Your family gets to bear the cost of the shovel used to scrap your carcass off the ground.... same goes for any "extreme sport". Hell, I worked for a ground handling company which offered life insurance as part of the benefits, yet in the fine print said you were not covered if you worked at an airport or around aircraft...

Just as a matter of interest, you can voluntarily waive your own rights, but you can't waive the rights of your dependants. If you die in a bungee accident, your family can always sue, regardless of what paperwork you signed. That's why most waivers aren't worth more than the paper they're printed on.

[rubberboot]

Sure, it is a calculated risk to bungee jump from a bridge yet all bungee jump companies make you sign a waiver so you can't sue and your personal insurance company won't cover anything should the 1 in a million bungee snap happen. Your family gets to bear the cost of the shovel used to scrap your carcass off the ground.... same goes for any "extreme sport". Hell, I worked for a ground handling company which offered life insurance as part of the benefits, yet in the fine print said you were not covered if you worked at an airport or around aircraft...

Just as a matter of interest, you can voluntarily waive your own rights, but you can't waive the rights of your dependants. If you die in a bungee accident, your family can always sue, regardless of what paperwork you signed. That's why most waivers aren't worth more than the paper they're printed on.

Well, that's good to know, yet I was thinking more along the Insurance (life) policy. You get killed doing something that is not covered (ie high risk), they will not cover you.

Although it would have been your family that would need to sue for you anyway, because unless your Casper dead people can't sue....

Someone above mentioned common sense. I have been told that common sense never existed because there is no such thing as a common person - everyone is different. This is why my coffee cup says "HOT! Be careful". My screw driver says "not to be used as a prybar or chisel" although it is one of the best ones I've used... My snowblower has all sorts of warnings and semi-graphic pics on mangled or dismembered limbs. if there is a warning, it happened at least once and there was a huge $ payout....

[NeverBlue]

it is a matter of what you (and your insurance company) consider acceptable risk...

Really? Does your Adjuster have an office in your shop? Are you supposed to call and ask anytime you might do something "risky"?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

This is why my coffee cup says "HOT! Be careful". 

No... $$$$$ is why it says that....nothing to do with safety or common sense at all...

...otherwise every cup in your cupboard would say it...every outlet in your house would be labeled "do not stick objects in outlet"...every stair in your house would have yellow paint on the leading edge.

All those labels are about money and nothing else.

Common sense is a term, has a meaning and has existed for ever....

And common sense should ensure that performing a potentially hazardous task requires control of the environment and those who enter it.


Seatbelts are about safety...

[rubberboot]

it is a matter of what you (and your insurance company) consider acceptable risk...

Really? Does your Adjuster have an office in your shop? Are you supposed to call and ask anytime you might do something "risky"?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

This is why my coffee cup says "HOT! Be careful". 

No... $$$$$ is why it says that....nothing to do with safety or common sense at all...

...otherwise every cup in your cupboard would say it...every outlet in your house would be labeled "do not stick objects in outlet"...every stair in your house would have yellow paint on the leading edge.

All those labels are about money and nothing else.

Common sense is a term, has a meaning and has existed for ever....

And common sense should ensure that performing a potentially hazardous task requires control of the environment and those who enter it.


Seatbelts are about safety...

I see why most people have issues with your statements... you tend to go on the attack when responding. I have no dog in this hunt, so save your battle for someone else. I am not here to pick fights with people. I am posting to offer an opinion - I have respected yours in the past, I expect you to offer the same.

I stand by what I wrote. Go tell an Occupational health and safety inspector about commonsense... we did and got spanked for it. Commonsense tells me that coffee is hot, I personally don't need a warning and neither did anyone else until someone sued and won millions against McDonalds. I don't need to be told not to reach into a snowblower.... all those warnings come from not wanting to be sued because of lapses in common sense. Yes it is $$$$ why commonsense cant be trusted.

you don't need an adjuster in your shop, it will be in the insurance policy on what is not covered. Accidents happen and that's what insurance is for, but again if your policy doesn't cover it then you need to deal with it. I don't know what happened to Airspray, nor do I care. I do know it is against our company policy to refuel/defuel in the hangar. It is not considered an acceptable risk. Period.

defueling sucks fresh air into the tanks to displace the fuel coming out. fuelling pushes the fumes out the vents when fuelling. Or at least it will on Large aircraft when using a fuel truck to defuel. I don't work on small aircraft, but know that it is usually a manual method (ie bucket or hose into a barrel) for draining them. Can't ground plastic so static can be an issue, unless you use a metal pail (I worked for 1 company that only used white plastic pails...). You can be the safest person in the world and prepped everything perfect, then someone else walks in and with a fleece pullover and arcs himself to the airplane. odds of it happening are slim, but it is a risk that you can't prepare for.

Again, its your call. Our company won't be defueling or fueling in the hangar.

[NeverBlue]

What r u talking about...I see what they mean?

Doing it right is irrelevant

...that was your response to my post that you quoted...am I not allowed to respond if I disagree?

. Go tell an Occupational health and safety inspector about commonsense...

Now that would be just stupid...and THAT is common sense.


Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

[hoptwoit]

Even if their losses were covered, don't you think that not burning down their hangar would be a better outcome???

Even if their losses were covered, don't you think that not burning down their hangar would be a better outcome???

Even if their losses were covered, don't you think that not burning down their hangar would be a better outcome???

[rubberboot]

What r u talking about...I see what they mean?

Doing it right is irrelevant

...that was your response to my post that you quoted...am I not allowed to respond if I disagree?

You are more then welcome to disagree, yet there is probably better ways to get your point across without the appearance of an attack. Your not alone - I see this trait way too often in the forums I belong too. Its disappointing, and I gladly will admit getting sucked into the vortex from time to time. If you read that as an attack, you have my apologies as it was not intended that way at all. It was meant to point out that SOMEBODY can do something right, and have the bad hand of fate comes along to wreck all of your preplanning... look at it in it's entirety, not in the small section quoted above.

I think it comes down to multiple ways of reading the same thing.

Go tell an Occupational health and safety inspector about commonsense...

Now that would be just stupid...and THAT is common sense.

This is what I am talking about regarding common sense. It doesn't exist, because everyones concept of common sense is different. Our manager mentioned that term, and got a lecture from OHS. I have seen a training package for a folding step ladder....

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

no idea whether they did or not. That is something they would know. Was the fire even started by defueling in a hangar?

I think we have strayed off topic, so I am going to stop here.

To the OP, if you choose to defuel or refuel in a hangar is up to what you are willing to risk. Just be aware that the airport directives or your insurance may not appreciate this procedure.

[Troubleshot]

Somebody should have warned you Rubberboot about the maintenance forum troll via PM. Anyway, I would just stop now. You will not get anywhere.

You'll just get a lot of hacked-up quotes, plenty of (..........), and a shit ton of emoticons. He is an expert on all subjects and will go off the rails if you disagree with him. If he starts a post with a "huh" , "ummm", or "uh..." he is insinuating you are an idiot and how dare you even post on the subject.

If you posted the sky is blue, expect a response like "huh??????.....what if its cloudy?????? " This is the type of hair-splitting nonsense you'll get from this guy. Anyway, just an FYI.

TS

[NeverBlue]

...completely off topic TS

Boot...it's you that brought insurance up.

Was the fire even started by defueling in a hangar?

Yes...it was started by an AME that simply unplugged and extension cord when fuel was being handled in the hangar.

I have seen a training package for a folding step ladder....

yes indeed...ladder training required...fall arrest training if you go above a certain height...all to save money from being sued and don't mention common sense at all please.

...but it still exists

If he starts a post with a "huh" , "ummm", or "uh..." he is insinuating you are an idiot and how dare you even post on the subject.

ummmm...HUH?

[NeverBlue]

Even if their losses were covered, don't you think that not burning down their hangar would be a better outcome???

I don't get it HOPTWOIT..

So all airplanes should just stay on the ground then?

I mean...if you're not safe you could crash...so let's just never fly?

[NeverBlue]

https://work.alberta.ca/documents/WHS-LEG_ohsc_p10.pdf

Hangars are Class I locations for fuel storage and handling...allowed under the OHSA

[hoptwoit]

Even if their losses were covered, don't you think that not burning down their hangar would be a better outcome???

I don't get it HOPTWOIT..

So all airplanes should just stay on the ground then?

I mean...if you're not safe you could crash...so let's just never fly?

[rubberboot]

Boot...it's you that brought insurance up.

Yes, and insurance is within context for something he should consider before "hoping" that he defuels/fuels the right way inside a hangar.

I was referring to the "common sense" discussions. it is pretty obvious to me we will not see eye to eye and that's ok. I can gladly agree to disagree.

Somebody should have warned you Rubberboot about the maintenance forum troll via PM. Anyway, I would just stop now. You will not get anywhere.

Its all good. he is entitled to his opinion, I am entitled to mine and it is obvious to me anyways we look at things thru different glasses... I am 25yrs into my career, which also included working line fuelling/defueling aircraft as well as maintaining transport category stuff. If you notice my post count, I only post when I have something to add to the conversation; if not I just read it... It would take a lot to hurt my feelings.

[NeverBlue]

What the heck have I said that could've possibly "hurt your feelings"

W tf ever!

"hoping" that he defuels/fuels the right way 

Hoping the right way? Really?

Who would do that?

[NeverBlue]

INDOOR DEFUELING PROCEDURES

When an aircraft is scheduled for maintenance, the fuel system may have to be drained. Whenever possible, the aircraft should be defueled outdoors before it is moved into a hangar or maintenance tent. However, during routine maintenance disassembly, an unexpected condition can be discovered that makes defueling necessary. If the aircraft is either in a jig or on jacks when the discovery is made, moving the aircraft outdoors is probably impossible. In such a situation, the responsible engineer must be notified immediately and all alternatives to indoor defueling should be considered. If indoor defueling is to occur, follow the procedures described below.

Preparing to Defuel

A number of procedures must be followed when preparing to defuel indoors. These are as follows:

Move all aircraft that can be moved out of the hangar and park them at least 50 feet away from the hangar.
Open the main doors of the hangar, and close any office or shop doors that open into a hangar. Opening the main doors provides maximum ventilation and will allow the force of an explosion to dissipate.
Turn off all engines, electrical equipment, or other possible spark sources within 50 feet. Do not start or continue the operation if there is an electrical storm in the immediate area or a fuel spill, crash, fire, or any other emergency at the airfield.
Clear at least 50 feet of all personnel and equipment that are not required for defueling.
Grounding

In a hangar, a water pipe or a buried grid usually provides the ground connection to an aircraft. In a tent, a ground rod provides this ground connection.

Defueling

Procedures to defuel an aircraft indoors are the same as those for defueling into a tank vehicle or container outdoors.

[NeverBlue]

Worked in a place across the water that had a system in place that removed all fuel from tanks when maintenance of any kind took place.
Zero fumes ( other than normal)...fuel was removed by pump and carried away by hose to a holding tank.

All of it done in the hangar every time an aircraft was brought in for maintenance. Every time.

Expensive system? No doubt...

[GyvAir]

Worked in a place across the water that had a system in place that removed all fuel from tanks when maintenance of any kind took place.
Zero fumes ( other than normal)...fuel was removed by pump and carried away by hose to a holding tank.

All of it done in the hangar every time an aircraft was brought in for maintenance. Every time.

Expensive system? No doubt...

Uhhhhmmmmmmm......

[all_ramped_up]

INDOOR DEFUELING PROCEDURES

... If the aircraft is either in a jig or on jacks when the discovery is made, moving the aircraft outdoors is probably impossible. In such a situation, the responsible engineer must be notified immediately and all alternatives to indoor defueling should be considered. If indoor defueling is to occur, follow the procedures described below...

Saw this exact situation happen a couple weeks ago. Bird was up on jacks and couple of the guys were going to start the fuel system inspections... woops! It had full fuse and wings. So it had to be defueled indoors.

We have the proper hoses and attachments to drain via the LP pump to a properly bonded/grounded metallic drum. Bond Airframe to container, and container to ground and ground the Airframe then you've mitigated about all the risk you can. So with proper procedures followed by competent Techs, I don't see the problem.

[NeverBlue]

Whaaattt?.

Gyv, TS, Hop, Boot..nothing?

R we sure this guy isn't a "Troll" just trying to argue? I mean, all he's here to do is contradict you...

Mod's??



+1 ramped_up.

[rubberboot]

What the heck have I said that could've possibly "hurt your feelings"

W tf ever!

Who said you hurt my feelings??? read what I wrote again - I said "it would take a lot to hurt my feelings". I think reading it completely, would help. Also, the response was to TS, not everything written revolves around NeverBlue...

"hoping" that he defuels/fuels the right way

Hoping the right way? Really?

Who would do that?

that was my understanding of this advice that was given, with no other basis provided -

Do it right...no problem...

no tips or pointers, no guidance on how to do it right... just give'r. And its why I ended up posting again.

INDOOR DEFUELING PROCEDURES

... If the aircraft is either in a jig or on jacks when the discovery is made, moving the aircraft outdoors is probably impossible. In such a situation, the responsible engineer must be notified immediately and all alternatives to indoor defueling should be considered. If indoor defueling is to occur, follow the procedures described below...

Saw this exact situation happen a couple weeks ago. Bird was up on jacks and couple of the guys were going to start the fuel system inspections... woops! It had full fuse and wings. So it had to be defueled indoors.

We have the proper hoses and attachments to drain via the LP pump to a properly bonded/grounded metallic drum. Bond Airframe to container, and container to ground and ground the Airframe then you've mitigated about all the risk you can. So with proper procedures followed by competent Techs, I don't see the problem.

Awesome. Glad it worked out, yet it does not sound like the norm. It sounds like the aircraft is normally defueled outside, correct? We had this happen to us as well. We lowered the aircraft to the ground rolled it outside to defuel it. It wasn't a risk our company was willing to take. Our company has other policies in place to cover the maintenance of aircraft in the hangar with fuel on board that defines a difference between line and heavy maintenance. Its not the competent tech you need to worry about - it is the ground handler, groomer, office admin clerk, customer, or other person that is not in the plan that is the issue. *I had written here that our company would defuel in a hangar if there was zero other options, but I have retracted that - we have a company policy that would prevent us from being in that situation in the first place so i will stand with our company will never defuel or fuel inside a hangar.

Whaaattt?.

Gyv, TS, Hop, Boot..nothing?

R we sure this guy isn't a "Troll" just trying to argue? I mean, all he's here to do is contradict you...

Mod's??



+1 ramped_up.

All ramped up isn't trolling at all.. he is offering his opinion and it is based off of something he has experienced, same way I am. I respect his opinion, same way I still respect yours. So I am unsure what you are getting at - why are you so angry? I don't define trolling as someone offering a different opinion than my own... Do you?


*Edited - removed incorrect statement.