Fort McMurray mandatory evac

[Rockie]

You can't build a preemptive fire break around every town and it wouldn't have slowed this fire down anyway. The fact environmentalists aren't fans of cutting down trees has nothing to do with it - neither are oil workers because everybody likes trees to look at especially on their own property.

You cut them down to make a fire break as necessary when there's a fire.

Ezra's full of s**t as usual.

[Shady McSly]

You cut them down to make a fire break as necessary when there's a fire.

Based on your vast fire suppression experience? Where did you work?

[tbaylx]

You can't build a preemptive fire break around every town and it wouldn't have slowed this fire down anyway. The fact environmentalists aren't fans of cutting down trees has nothing to do with it - neither are oil workers because everybody likes trees to look at especially on their own property.

You cut them down to make a fire break as necessary when there's a fire.

Ezra's full of s**t as usual.

Considering the speed the fire moved at I don't think that's realistic.

The reason the oil sands operations themselves aren't too concerned about the fire is because they have a several hundred (thousand?) meter fire break already constructed. You can't wait until the fire starts then start chopping stuff down. It's either in place before hand or you choose not to do it for whatever reasons you may have.

Doesn't happen often where a fire does this much damage, but when it does it's devastating.

Ironically I've heard argue that the reason fires are getting larger and more difficult to deal with is because we're putting them out so effectively for the most part. No fires= no natural clearing of deadwood and renewal of old forests, so the stuff you have left is a tinderbox on a dry season like this.

[Rockie]

Based on your vast fire suppression experience? Where did you work?

You have no idea what my experience with this is or where I've worked. Besides that, do you think you need to be a fire suppression expert to know what a fire break is or that they're built in front of actual fires?

Considering the speed the fire moved at I don't think that's realistic.

No it's not at all realistic where this fire is concerned as copious reports clearly indicate. This thing jumps over a kilometer at a time.

[digits_]

I am wondering how a fire crosses a 1 km wide river. Does it heat up the air soo much that it ignites trees 1 km further away ? Is drift wood on fire crossing the river ? Something else ?

[7ECA]

I am wondering how a fire crosses a 1 km wide river. Does it heat up the air soo much that it ignites trees 1 km further away ? Is drift wood on fire crossing the river ? Something else ?

Probably in a similar manner to how the Kelowna fires spread in 2003, flying embers and very high winds.

[cgzro]

I imagine that once a fire reaches that level of intensity that the thermals are incredibly powerful and can carry significant bits of burning lumber not just ash high into the air and downwind.

Not sure what could be done, even metal roofs and stucco/brick etc. won't be enough. I guess you need to be extremely aggressive with catching fires very early, but then of course each year the fuel load accumulates.

[North Shore]

I am wondering how a fire crosses a 1 km wide river. Does it heat up the air soo much that it ignites trees 1 km further away ? Is drift wood on fire crossing the river ? Something else ?

A large fire can have 200 foot flames coming off the head, and has huge amounts of thermal energy being released. It will kick up small branches, pinecones, etc, and can carry them a long way downwind. All those embers have to do is land in a spot conducive to burning (dry grass, leaves, needles, etc..) with a strong wind blowing (as was the case in YMM), and it's off again..If you look at some of the 'Escape from McMurray' videos that are doing the rounds on YouFaceTwit, you can see that it is literally raining embers, as the people are driving along. Terrifying - how people managed to keep their cool while driving through that is amazing.

[crazyaviator]

Ft, Mac could provide a perimeter of Select trees, thinned for a km with all ground, Call it a perimeter part), brush removed and grassed. beyond that another 1km perimeter of green fields,( call it grazing fields),,,,, A great make work project for inmates and welfare recipients !!! DREAM ON !!

[digits_]

Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?

[Rockie]

Ft, Mac could provide a perimeter of Select trees, thinned for a km with all ground, Call it a perimeter part), brush removed and grassed. beyond that another 1km perimeter of green fields,( call it grazing fields),,,,, A great make work project for inmates and welfare recipients !!! DREAM ON !!

Does the city own the 2 km wide swath of land all around it to be able to make those changes? Does any city or town? How much will it cost for each community to do that? How effective will it be using this fire as a yard stick? Will people even support the change to the landscape, cost of the work and likely much higher cost of expropriating land to accomplish such a task?

I believe this kind of measure was recommended after Slave Lake, but at some point practical considerations to build huge pre-emptive fire breaks have to be weighed against existing fire detection and suppression capabilities, and a Ft. Mac type of event happening.

[mbav8r]

Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?

Manitoba is currently under a burn ban and has a couple significant fires burning right now, including evacuations of some communities. We have not had much precipitation to speak of and it wouldn't be prudent to send our quick response two provinces away, that's my guess.

[iflyforpie]

Ft, Mac could provide a perimeter of Select trees, thinned for a km with all ground, Call it a perimeter part), brush removed and grassed. beyond that another 1km perimeter of green fields,( call it grazing fields),,,,, A great make work project for inmates and welfare recipients !!! DREAM ON !!

Does the city own the 2 km wide swath of land all around it to be able to make those changes? Does any city or town? How much will it cost for each community to do that? How effective will it be using this fire as a yard stick? Will people even support the change to the landscape, cost of the work and likely much higher cost of expropriating land to accomplish such a task?

I believe this kind of measure was recommended after Slave Lake, but at some point practical considerations to build huge pre-emptive fire breaks have to be weighed against existing fire detection and suppression capabilities, and a Ft. Mac type of event happening.

No.. but the Province does since the lions's share of it is Crown Land, and since it is responsible for fire protection it should easily be able to allow the thinning of fuels around every interface in the province. The few private parcels shouldn't matter, because most likely they've already been cleared or at least high graded anyways.

How much will it cost? Almost nothing. Put tenders out for the timber companies to do the work; they'll get the value in timber. Perhaps a bit of lost revenue in stumpage fees to encourage them to clear low grade wood... but a drop in the bucket compared to what even an average sized fire season costs--to say nothing about what has happened in Ft Mac.

This was one of the recommendations of the (largely ignored) Firestorm Report after 03 in the Okanagan.

Prevention is always better than suppression.

[goingnowherefast]

Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?

You can only fit so many airplanes in one chunk of airspace. Fires with active air suppression and co-current evacuation are very very busy.

I wonder if this fire will lead to more prescribed burning in the future? Forest fires are natural and if done in a controlled manner, are perfectly safe.

[digits_]

Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?

Manitoba is currently under a burn ban and has a couple significant fires burning right now, including evacuations of some communities. We have not had much precipitation to speak of and it wouldn't be prudent to send our quick response two provinces away, that's my guess.

I see, makes sense !

[HiLo]

To anyone who was pointing fingers about government incompetence allowing this fire to spread:

Looks like they did a good job considering how big the fire was: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/the ... e29930041/

[co-joe]

I'd still love to the the Ruskies show up. I'd bet they do things differently than we do and we might learn a thing or two. Language barrier would be a real issue in the airspace, but when help is offered and you say no thanks, the next time they might not offer.

[HiLo]

I'd still love to the the Ruskies show up. I'd bet they do things differently than we do and we might learn a thing or two. Language barrier would be a real issue in the airspace, but when help is offered and you say no thanks, the next time they might not offer.

I think the last thing congested firefighting airspace needs is a language barrier.

[co-joe]

I don't know, didn't Quebec send CL-415's?

[HiLo]

I don't know, didn't Quebec send CL-415's?

I spilled my coffee.