2 yr agreement vs. bond
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2 yr agreement vs. bond
Anyone know law. If you sign a 2 yr to stay agreement and leave before that, can a company claim training costs. There is nothing written about training bonds and they admit that. The only thing written is you forfeit the profit share and performance bonus which they hold for 2 yrs.
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Changes in Latitudes
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Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
If there is nothing in the agreement about repayment of training fees, then they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they wanted to come after you. I strongly recommend everyone read the wording very carefully!
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Notta Simfalt
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Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
Looks like you would just lose the profit share and bonus. Which is really just another form of bond. Stay less than 2 years, you get less money. They can use the saved money for training costs.cxchd wrote:Anyone know law. If you sign a 2 yr to stay agreement and leave before that, can a company claim training costs. There is nothing written about training bonds and they admit that. The only thing written is you forfeit the profit share and performance bonus which they hold for 2 yrs.
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Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
The typical lawyer answer I'll give is: it depends.
It all comes down to what was agreed to - it doesn't even have to be written for there to be a binding contract BUT, it's pretty hard to prove the exact terms of an agreement when it becomes a bit of he said, she said.
The written contract is the first aspect. Most employment contracts outline specifics with respect to ending employment. If there's nothing in the contract, that's a start.
At the beginning of the job did both you and the operator expect to have to pay back training expenses if you didn't stay for two years? Why did you have that expectation? i.e. something in the employment contract, something that was said between you and someone at the operator or something that you promised? When they sent you to training, was there any indication that the training was in exchange for your agreement to stay two years?
It's not a cut and dry answer. If there is any issues and a larger sum on money at stake, it is definitely worth your while to meet with an employment lawyer.
It all comes down to what was agreed to - it doesn't even have to be written for there to be a binding contract BUT, it's pretty hard to prove the exact terms of an agreement when it becomes a bit of he said, she said.
The written contract is the first aspect. Most employment contracts outline specifics with respect to ending employment. If there's nothing in the contract, that's a start.
At the beginning of the job did both you and the operator expect to have to pay back training expenses if you didn't stay for two years? Why did you have that expectation? i.e. something in the employment contract, something that was said between you and someone at the operator or something that you promised? When they sent you to training, was there any indication that the training was in exchange for your agreement to stay two years?
It's not a cut and dry answer. If there is any issues and a larger sum on money at stake, it is definitely worth your while to meet with an employment lawyer.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
I actually have in an email from the company that there is no bond. If there was I would not be here. I will not sign a bond. What made me and my lawyer laugh was when they quoted in an email that they are basing this on some contract law based on Judge Judy from TV. I'll here from my lawyer in a day or two.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
That's ridiculous.
Walk and don't return their calls.
Let them serve you if they think there is a case.
Walk and don't return their calls.
Let them serve you if they think there is a case.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
I should have read more closely. In a general sense, not this poster, If you sign a two-year agreement to work for somebody and you left early you have broken the contract and they can sue you for completion and/or reasonable damages. Or you pay the agreed penalty. Contract law applies.
Last edited by xsbank on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
xsb, I think you're wrong.
The poster reports that the contract said he would forfeit performance bonus and profit share if leaving before 2 years.
Presumably he has not been paid them, thus meeting the penalties stipulated in the contract in the event he left. That is fair and there is nothing wrong with that.
It's like if I broke my mortgage contract with the bank because I wanted a better rate somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with that. I will pay the penalty and move on. That's business. Period. By paying the penalties I fulfill the conditions the contract.
Sounds like the company is now looking for more. Beyond what was agreed to... I wouldn't give them the time of day..
The poster reports that the contract said he would forfeit performance bonus and profit share if leaving before 2 years.
Presumably he has not been paid them, thus meeting the penalties stipulated in the contract in the event he left. That is fair and there is nothing wrong with that.
It's like if I broke my mortgage contract with the bank because I wanted a better rate somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with that. I will pay the penalty and move on. That's business. Period. By paying the penalties I fulfill the conditions the contract.
Sounds like the company is now looking for more. Beyond what was agreed to... I wouldn't give them the time of day..
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
Hi Alti, I think we are both correct, you more so as I misread (I used to get good reading comprehension marks in Miss Shultz' reading class) the original post - I was ranting before my granola this morning.
Apologies for my original post.
Apologies for my original post.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
Glad to hear the OP has contacted a lawyer. Be sure to have him/her look into the case of 171817 Canada Inc. v. Foris, 1998 CanLII 6955 (NWT SC).
http://www.canlii.org/en/nt/ntsc/doc/19 ... pletePos=1
Very specific circumstances, but it was found that the pilot had promised to stay two years, left after 10 months and was required to pay the pro-rata remaining amount of the training costs.
http://www.canlii.org/en/nt/ntsc/doc/19 ... pletePos=1
Very specific circumstances, but it was found that the pilot had promised to stay two years, left after 10 months and was required to pay the pro-rata remaining amount of the training costs.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
That's somewhat crappy to supposedly put a ton of research in then promise two years, only to turn around less than two years later all "GFY, suckas! If you think I meant what I said imma lawyer up!"
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co-joe
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Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
Yeah, or you could just stick around and honour the contract you signed.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
He did honour the contract by forfeiting pay considerations when he chose to leave as was stipulated in the contract he signed.
If the operator wants more they should have included it in the contract.
It's a business decision. That's all.
If the operator wants more they should have included it in the contract.
It's a business decision. That's all.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
That is the argument I'm having with them. Nowhere is it written about training costs. Only the written forfeit of profit and bonus pay. Here's the good one. They say I should have asked. When I said I did ask about a bond they said there isn't one and that was it. I read through the contract carefully. Lots of reasons to fire you and they do fire pilots. I agree I should pay them something, but not what they are asking. They said they were open to negotiation, but not really. I tried to make an offer, but that didn't go anywhere.
So my question here is, and my lawyer will have to figure this out, what is the difference of a bond and an agreement. Under contractual law shouldn't all conditions be spelled out.
So my question here is, and my lawyer will have to figure this out, what is the difference of a bond and an agreement. Under contractual law shouldn't all conditions be spelled out.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
Definitely default to your lawyers position on it - but if a contract is laid out that you are forfeiting pay in your decision to leave that seems like consideration to me.
If it just said that you will stay 2 years without any consideration on your part should you leave early than it isn't a very well written contract and leaves the penalty open to judgement which would leave you exposed somewhat.
If I'm understanding it right, I would tell them to keep the profit share and bonus as specified and see you in court for the rest. But again, if you have a lawyer the couple hundred $ to have him look over the contract and advise is probably well spent if you're feeling exposed.
What was the type anyway? How much do they want?
If it just said that you will stay 2 years without any consideration on your part should you leave early than it isn't a very well written contract and leaves the penalty open to judgement which would leave you exposed somewhat.
If I'm understanding it right, I would tell them to keep the profit share and bonus as specified and see you in court for the rest. But again, if you have a lawyer the couple hundred $ to have him look over the contract and advise is probably well spent if you're feeling exposed.
What was the type anyway? How much do they want?
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
Generally if you breach a contract damages due would be the amount the company can demonstrate it's out of pocket compared to had you not breached the contract. If you signed up for two years you would have to make them square. In a contract you wouldn't normally say what the damages in a breach would be - that would be for the court to assess. But, it's a complicated subject so good that you're taking professional advice.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
But is he breaching the contract ? If they agreed on: stay for 2 years or loose your bonus, he is still doing that. If you have a 2 year bond and you leave earlier, pay XX % of the agreed bond amount, are you breaching your contract ?photofly wrote: In a contract you wouldn't normally say what the damages in a breach would be - that would be for the court to assess.
And if you do leave without paying damages: why are you leaving? Was the working situation unsafe? Did they not pay you the agreed upon amount? Or did you just leave to get a better job without any excuse?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
We aren't getting all the info.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: 2 yr agreement vs. bond
I have made them a cash offer for a substantial amount. Haven't heard anything back. My lawyer has said that if it comes to court it is in my favour. She has found a few cases, aviation related, that have gone against the companies for not spelling out the terms and consequences properly of a contract same as this one. The case that was linked here is a special case and not the same as this one.
