PA28 Checkout

[JungianJugular]

EDIT

[Big Pistons Forever]

You need a better insurance company. 5 hours is excessive so I would push back. I wanted to add another pilot onto the insurance of my Grumman AA1B and the best quote wanted a 3 hour checkout. I complained to my broker and by the next day the requirement was reduced to 1 hour.

[CpnCrunch]

You need a better insurance company. 5 hours is excessive so I would push back. I wanted to add another pilot onto the insurance of my Grumman AA1B and the best quote wanted a 3 hour checkout. I complained to my broker and by the next day the requirement was reduced to 1 hour.

I think it depends on experience. When I had 180hrs the insurance company required a 3 hour checkout on the PA28. (I'd only flown 3 hours in the previous 12 months). Some pilots with less experience required a 5 hour checkout IIRC, which is probably overkill. I'm not really sure why previous experience would matter at all though...it's much easier to fly than the 172, as long as you remember to switch tanks.

[ahramin]

No one needs a 5 hour checkout in a PA28.

[PilotDAR]

Yeah, I have to agree with Big Pistons and Ahramin on this. Basic currency and skills in place, 5 hours should not be needed for a type familiarization in a PA-28. If it ends up that some of that time is spent on review of basic skills and emergencies, that's always good. If it's required to assure currency, I suppose that's okay, but it should be expressed that way. Particularly, if the flying is preceded by an effective review of the POH for the PA-28, and the content sticks in your mind, there is not 5 hours of new things in a PA-28 from other GA types.

Bear in mind that some would have you think there are a lot of "differences" between light GA certified aircraft models. Not really, they were all certified to a common design standard, and a recurring theme in there is "must nor require unusual pilot skill and attention" to achieve the required performance and handling. Yes, some types, like a Lake Amphibian do require some additional skills to be flown well - but not a PA-28.

I'm not advocating just jump in it and go, but rather fly with a skilled pilot, and if they are satisfied with your basic skills, and will recommend you to the insurer, the insurer should be satisfied too. Insurers are pushing in the wrong directions in my opinion. I believe that they should inspire more "familiarization" flying, and more practice ('could be solo) of emergencies, and with that, have more faith in pilot's skills.

More than a decade ago I needed to be covered in my friend's 172 to ferry it. I filled out the application. The insurer phoned me and asked: "of the 3500 hours you have reported flying single engine Cessnas, how many were on a 172?" I replied (unable to conceal my surprise at a silly question) I asked: "Does it matter?". "Well... it could all be in a 150!". I replied: "Anyone with 3500 hours in C 150s can fly a 172 just fine." . With hesitation, she agreed, and that was that. I wish that insurance people were as skilled at their job, as they expect pilots to be at flying!

[Aussiecat]

I got checked out on the Cherokee 6-300 a number of years ago to help a friend out, I was sub 200hrs, maybe 4 hrs in a pa-28. And only required 1 hour
to satisfy insurance, interestingly enough the flight instructor/ designated examiner that the insurance recommended to do the check flight, had never flown a cherokee before ............

[JungianJugular]

Thanks for the heads up. I thought five hours was excessive too. Getting my buddy, who owns the aircraft, to speak to his broker. This is to get me on for a XC we'd like to do out West.

[ahramin]

Does your buddy have a commercial licence or private?

[PilotDAR]

Bear in mind that an "instructor" can be a nice to have, but is not a got to have if the pilot being checked out is at least a PPL. The insurance company should equally well accept an experienced pilot as a mentor. They might want a bit more detail about the mentor pilot's experience, but not being an instructor should not be a show stopper. I've been doing private mentoring and checkouts for decades, and have never been an instructor. It is possible that you could find a very experienced pilot locally, where an instructor with experience on some types would be hard to find. That said, any pilot with 500 hours total time in a variation of types and well current can check out another pilot in a PA-28 - they're not difficult to fly well! Just remember to change fuel tanks!

[Redneck_pilot86]

Brand new to a commercial twin vfr only requires 4 hours...5 on a simple single is too much.

[Old Dog Flying]

Over the past 20 odd years we had both myself and my wife listed as PIC on the insurance for our Grumman AA1A. Two years ago I developed arthritis so bad that I could not get in or out of the wee beast and because SWMBO'd at all times had not logged any PIC time in the previous 12 months, the insurance company demanded that she receiver 5 hours dual from an instructor who was current on "make and model". My better half has literally been denied the right to fly based on some tweenie clerks computer decission. She has about 400 hrs on "make and model".

[PilotDAR]

I was sent a few years ago to ferry a Lake Amphibian from a Toronto area airport, to have an overdue inspection carried out (I had a flight permit). I notified the airport apron office that I would be taking the plane, and provided a letter of permission from the owner. I was insured under the fleet policy of the maintenance shop, for which I had a letter.

Upon arriving at the airport to pick up the plane, the airport manager sought me out, and asked me my qualifications to fly a Lake. I replied: "More than adequate, and here's the letter of permission, and insurance.". No good enough for him, he stated that I would require a checkout before I could take it. Being as I am a person who checks pilots out in Lakes, I was curious.... "Do you have an instructor on your staff experienced in Lakes to check me out?" I asked... The conversation came to a rapid end, as I think he muttered "no", under his breath as he turned away....

I'm all for type training, and mentoring, and I'm proud to demonstrate that I have the experience appropriate to carry out flights I intend. People behind desks at airports, and phones at insurance agencies should be qualified themselves on type, if they wish to challenge my qualifications. Happily, my insurance broker (who is the agent for the aforementioned fleet policy) is very experienced in aviation. It's worth seeking out these experienced people when discussing your insurance needs....

[JungianJugular]

You've all given solid advice for a not so experienced CPL student in training. Thanks.

[Cessna 180]

5 hours is excessive. Regardless if you need a short checkout on the Cherokee, give me a message. Mind you if you're buddy is a commercial pilot, I'm sure he can give you the checkout himself.

[niss]

No one needs a 5 hour checkout in a PA28.

And that is the kind of Top Gunnery that gets Cherokee Pilots killed. Flying the beast is an exercise in riding the knife edge. When I'm in the air I go by call sign "Flying Nik" because any slip up can result in disaster. The Cherokee is a brutally unforgiving aircraft and truly separates the aviator from the stick puller.

I cross the threshold at 80 MPH! EIGHTY FUCKING MILES PER HOUR! Cars drive on the highway at 60mph, and I safely land back on the ground at 80. You know why I am able to pull off this feat of aviating off? Because I respect the beast.

When I'm turning and burning over southern Ontario with the precious lives of cattle below me, I regularly pull 1.8G. Now, lesser pilots would start to black out at 1.3, 1.4 but not I. When I'm cranking and yanking I know that I have to stay in the zone, lest I turn those benevolent bovines in to barbeque.

Not all pilots are created equal, and not all pilots respect the PA28 the way she deserves. Everynight when I put the plane to bed, I go home and pour myself a glass, as a toast to the cherokee pilots that didn't respect that aircraft. To the ones we've lost. She's like an abused pit bull. Look at her wrong, and she'll bite you.

No one needs a 5 hour check out in a cherokee? Shit. I don't know exactly how long it takes to tame the beast. But I know there's a bunch of kids who are never going to see their mommas who thought they could do it in less than 10.

[PilotDAR]

I regularly pull 1.8G

In the Cherokee, how do ya know?

[Old Dog Flying]

Tongue in cheek BS above!

The Cherokee line is very forging and no bad habits but the insurance industry is now dictating pilots' requirements because TC says you MUsT have insurance. and 80 mph across the threshold..so what! Try 175 Kys in a -104!

[niss]

and 80 mph across the threshold..so what! Try 175 Kys in a -104!

Listen Barney, we could all pull our dicks out to see who's is bigger (mine), but the fact remains that when I'm flying it's always life or death.

[Old Dog Flying]

Hi Niss...do you still have UBC? Like any aircraft, you have to treat it right 'cause even a Cub will kill...but only more slowly!

[niss]

Hi Niss...do you still have UBC? Like any aircraft, you have to treat it right 'cause even a Cub will kill...but only more slowly!

I sure do! The ol' gal is in for annual, and later this summer a new audio panel/intercom. Exciting times for the Snowbird Killer!

[LousyFisherman]

but the fact remains that when I'm flying it's always life or death.

hey, that's my job!!!! I not only endanger myself but everyone else in Southern Alberta when I fly!
Okay, you're in Onterrible, I suppose I could use the help there



LF

[lhalliday]

A personal datum: I gave myself a Beech Musketeer for my birthday.

With 180 hours PIC in PA28 the insurance company are looking for a checkride with a CPL or higher who is familiar with the type. No specifics on time or maneuvers, but from the test flight and discussions with the former owner (who will be doing the checkride) we'll concentrate on landings, since the sight picture on final is radically different from a Cherokee or a 172.

...laura

[photofly]

How is the sight picture radically different in a Beech Musketeer from a Cherokee? Do you land inverted?

[lhalliday]

A lot more nose-down. With a glareshield that is lower to begin with.

...laura

[PilotDAR]

the insurance company are looking for a checkride with a CPL or higher who is familiar with the type.

A little thread drift... The CPL standard seems to be a lazy default for the insurer. Yes, if you have access to a CPL who is willing and suitably experienced, that pilot could be a good choice. However, the better choice could be a PPL who has a lot of experience and total flying time, particularly if the aircraft type is uncommon. I earned my CPL more than three decades after being a PPL, and only because I was requested to have a CPL for flying I was requested to do. Prior to having the CPL, I donated my time for many checkouts over the decades, because I had the experience on type, and was locally available. Insurers seemed fine with that. A recently licensed CPL with low experience, and perhaps little on type might not be your best choice.

Bear in mind that there are a lot of types out there which are very difficult for "rental" pilots to access to build experience (I refer to aircraft like Mooneys, Bigger single Cessnas and Pipers, and amphibians, for example). You will often find that the experience on these types resides with "private" owners who fly recreationally, rather than CPL's who fly them for work. Though, yes, when the topic is a fixed gear PA-28, any CPL hopefully can figure one out!

Owners (new owners in particular) are not doing themselves, nor other owners any favours by caving in to insurer's demands for conditions of check out. Yes, I strongly support checkouts, mentoring and experience building, but insurers are often not the best people to assess who should be performing these checkouts, particularly on uncommon types. Look for the pilot who has time on type, flies regularly, and also has varied experience on other types. Choosing someone who is more close to you, who could be available for ongoing support is wise too.

since the sight picture on final is radically different from a Cherokee or a 172.

Don't become too hung up on sight picture. Yes, seeing where you are going is important, but as long as you can see where you are going, learn to understand where the plane is going, over where you see it could go. All certified aircraft meet the requirements for visibility, and they are presented for certifiers in great detail. Some aircraft meet them with what seems to be little excess (Piper Cheyenne II, and DC-3 come to mind), other types with lots (Partinavia Observer, for example). Then there are the taildraggers whose sight pictures change when the tail wheel is down (Cessna 180/185, Stearman or Harvard, for example). And types whose sight picture is really poor at certain phases of flight (most high wing aircraft during a more steep turn to base or final). All of these types meet the requirement for pilot visibility, and are indeed fine to land (though taxiing the taildraggers demands lots of attention), but their sight pictures are different. If I had my way, no high wing aircraft would be certified without skylights, but that's another discussion).

Focus more on everything you can see outside for a sense of where the plane is in space, and its motion relative to the desired flight path, rather than fixating on the runway visible ahead of you. Of course you need to see the runway to line up, but just because you have the runway nicely fixed in the optimum place in the windshield does not assure a good approach, nor a safe landing. Some aircraft (Bigger Cessna amphibians, for example) require quite steep descent angles for a gliding approach. Excellent sight picture if done right, but a decent sign picture (like that for a powered approach) will result in a less than safe gliding approach. ANd then there's the sight picture of landing on a surface which is not a marked runway, and everything changes again. The bigger picture view will give you much more information for more precise landings.