What part of it's too F@$^'N Big didn't you get

[RatherBeFlying]

Common carriers are under more extensive obligations than Joe Pilot and his 172.

I'm not obligated to install a wheelchair ramp in my car, but transit authorities are stepping up to the plate.

[JBI]

There's actually a significant amount of case law from both the Federal Court and the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal on what constitutes "undue hardship". There isn't a set amount of money or actions that become 'undue' hardship - it really is a judgment call based on current and past situations. Needless to say though, new situations come up all the time and they use the guidance provided by the legislation and previous decisions.

The enumerated grounds of discrimination are outlined in Section 15(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They are: race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. There are also analogous grounds but this is a more complicated issue beyond the scope of an aviation message board discussion. But an interesting read if googled.

[Rookie50]

I'm betting that bobcaygeon is right when he said that the airline staff probably weren't helpful. Although it is a simple case of "it just won't fit", one still needs to be sensitive to the idea that this is not a piece of luggage, it is this man's mobility - it almost a part of him at this point. If the very first person he talked to had an attitude of "won't fit - not my problem", things would have escalated emotionally, vs. if sympathy was shown and the attitude was "I'm sorry that it won't fit, let me see how we can accommodate you in another way". I wasn't there, so I can't say, but it seems like there is getting to be fewer and fewer people on the customer service end of things that actually care to provide customer service (not just in airlines, but everywhere).

I think -- as someone who flies a lot and observed a lot of airline CSR's as an economy Pax -- Hi Fly hits the nail on the head.

It's not so often what you say, it's how you say it, and this regard some airlines are exceedingly poor, Compared to others. Horrible customer service and communication skills, and that matters, even when the "no" answer is the same.

There a big difference between "it won't fit, let's find an answer" -- to " it won't fit, tough cookies, deal with it" -- sort of attitude. I've seen both.

Meeting every passenger demand isn't a passenger right. Being treated with respect, politeness, and dignity is.

The lack of effort by frontline staff, to assist passengers and even be polite, is appalling from some airlines. And don't go there on rude pax. No excuse to be arrogant, and even mean, to the next passenger in line, who is polite and respectful.

Some in CSR roles need to quit, they are so miserable with passengers.

[co-joe]

There is a parallel going on with this food allergy case in Quebec, where a waiter may end up going to jail over serving fish to a guy who had an anaphylactic reaction to it, and now the question is; can a restaurant refuse you service if you say you have a food allergy?

Can an airline refuse service to someone based on their mobility device? Is there a chair that would have fit? The rest of us are having our baggage allowances cut on an almost annual basis, so can an airline come out and say these are the max dimensions allowable for personal mobility devices?

[PropToFeather]

The enumerated grounds of discrimination are outlined in Section 15(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They are: race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. There are also analogous grounds but this is a more complicated issue beyond the scope of an aviation message board discussion. But an interesting read if googled.

See above. Saying someone can't fly because of their physical disability can be considered a Charter violation. There is a case to be made that, if a particular flight is unsuitable due to some sort of W&B or size issue, the carrier can offer alternative accommodations... but, I'll just quote direct from Tim's Facebook post on the matter and how that was done (emphasis mine):

To all my supporters and interested onlookers,

I have spoken to Air Canada twice today as I was called on two separate occasions by Mr. Gabriel Mancini who is the head of customer relations for Air Canada's medical desk. The calls are too long to relay in its entirety here but here is a summary of those are interested.

Mr. Mancini started the first conversation by offering what sounded like a heartfelt, if not far too late, apology on behalf of Air Canada. He then asked to confirm the dimensions and weight of my chair [this became especially relevant for conversation number 2]. We then discussed all of the options for travel. At the time of the first conversation the option of taking my wheelchair on the plane, in the cargo hold, direct to Cleveland, was still on the table. He also asked us whether a connecting flight was completely out of the question and I explained my hesitancy and challenges that come with a connecting flight, although I did not dismiss this option outright (Tim has a guide dog, which, as anyone that travelled with pets knows, can change your customs times by arbitrary amounts, depending on whether the customs agent likes you, the dog, or if the Moon is in the fifth house of Jupiter, making connecting flights a gamble) Surprisingly,, when I reminded Mr. Mancini that Air Canada was required to offer alternative transportation for the wheelchair, he seemed startled by the fact that I might consider this option. .He said he would look into it and is still looking into it. I would like to state clearly that this phone call was the first time that anyone at Air Canada has discussed any alternatives with me other than being told I could not fly and to refund my money.

We then got on the issue of the media, and the outright lies that Air Canada’s media relations team sent to major media outlets yesterday evening claiming that I had turned down two options that were presented to me. He admitted to and apologized for the fact that these options were probably not relayed clearly and that it was an unfortunate miscommunication. What he calls an unfortunate miscommunication, I call an outright lie to multiple major media outlets. I asked to speak to someone in the media relations department and he said he would forward that request on, I have not heard back yet.

On to call number 2. Mr. Mancini called me again this afternoon with some news. Natalie and I were hopeful, given the less than stellar PR that they have been receiving because of this, that we would get the answer we had wanted from the beginning- that I can in fact take my wheelchair on the same plane as me direct to Cleveland as anyone else would be permitted to travel with their legs. However, that was not why Mr. Mancini was calling. He was calling to tell me the unfortunate news that my chair was in fact too HEAVY, not too tall,, to fit on the plane. I would like to make clear that the weight has never been expressed to me as an issue before, either in regards to this flight or the countless other flights my chair as traveled on. I am still furious as I write this that they have changed their story . Whether this was one of their famous MISCOMMUNICATIONS or the actual truth, I don’t know and probably never will. Regardless they are now exploring other options as mentioned above.

Whether or not I deem the “alternative options” (which essentially amount to my “problem” being passed to another airline, or me not flying at all and being transported via ground) there is still a major issue here. This is not and never was simply about alternative options being available (although its become about that because Air Canada decided to lie about it). The main issue here is that Air Canada had a plane last year, that was fully able to accommodate me, a wheelchair user, and they swapped it out for a plane that has no seat for me. Whether I accept these accommodations does not change the fact that I’m being told I am unwelcome on an Air Canada aircraft to Cleveland because I am disabled and use an average sized wheelchair. I am not the first to experience this, nor am I sure will be the last, but I’m using the minimal amount of traction my story has gained to bring attention to the fact that a major airline is operating planes that do not accommodate wheelchairs. Air Canada need to address this situation. No major carrier in 2016 should be operating any flights that cannot accommodate an average size wheelchair. Air Canada continues to say that this is nothing more than a technical issue. It’s not a technical issue, it is a human right issue.

To be honest, I probably will take one of the alternative options, because I need and want to get to Cleveland. As mentioned to Air Canada today, had they proposed any option at all to me, none of this would have happened, but since I now find myself with a platform and some nation attention, I’m using it as a way to call this out for what it is, discrimination based on my disability. Thanks to everyone for the love and support. ‪#‎wheelchairsarentluggage‬

To me, this whole situation seems like AC dropped the ball on the side of the CSR, and, when it turned out that the ball being dropped was an outspoken disability advocate, decided to do a PR battle in the press instead of actually trying to resolve the underlying issue with the customer. And, here's the thing: no one looks good in this! Tim wasn't really looking for national attention - he's going to Cleveland to speak as a disability advocate at a convention, he's already got a platform, and Air Canada looks like either the villain or the village idiot, since, depending on your personal views, they either are denying service based on a disability (a possible Charter violation) or are so bad at communicating the alternative travel options that the customer has to go to the media.

Here's the kicker - none of this is happening "at the gate". Tim has stated that his travel is for September. So, all of this hubbub is because he, being a proactive customer, has notified AC of his mobility needs. You'll note that is literally what every airline wants you to do (and that people with alternative mobility needs generally know to do well ahead of time)

[PilotDAR]

So, all of this hubbub is because he, being a proactive customer, has notified AC of his mobility needs.

Fair enough, but the fact remains that it is possible that the needs for mobility cannot be accommodated with the aircraft which serves the route. I don't know this, just surmising based upon what I have read. If our society collectively wants to assure that all transport can accommodate all needs, it's going to get expensive....

I was once approached to quote STC approval of accommodation in the cabin for a person up to 750 pounds weight. When I told the operator what would have to be done structurally to the aircraft to enable this, the idea faded away. Similarly with large items being loaded into medium sized baggage holds never designed with such loads in mind. If it does not fit through a door, making a bigger door is expensive!

[PropToFeather]

So, all of this hubbub is because he, being a proactive customer, has notified AC of his mobility needs.

Fair enough, but the fact remains that it is possible that the needs for mobility cannot be accommodated with the aircraft which serves the route. I don't know this, just surmising based upon what I have read. If our society collectively wants to assure that all transport can accommodate all needs, it's going to get expensive....

Well, that is why I have highlighted the fact that he was, until vilified in the media, completely open (though not excited) about the possibility of alternate arrangements. In another post he alluded that he was willing to go as far as ground transportation, if need be. (Just that, like most of us, he would rather fly, as it's the less time consuming route)

[RatherBeFlying]

Manual wheelchairs are simple to accommodate, especially as they fold up and one person can easily lift them. Electric wheelchairs are a whole 'nuther ballgame.

The electric wheelchair manufacturers and airlines are dropping the ball.

There needs to be a shipping container with tie down points compatible with the hold. With a proper container, the chance of damage to expensive, fragile and heavy equipment goes way down.

Some aircraft will not have the capability.

Each airline needs to determine which aircraft are capable and publish a list of which routes can accommodate a powered wheelchair.

It would be nice if the airlines shared a pool of powered wheelchair containers that could be pre-booked.

[goingnowherefast]

What if wheel chair companies made "airline friendly" models of electric wheelchairs?

Why didn't he use this model?


Should airlines be expected to accomodate this model?

[GyvAir]

It gets better...

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/mom-upset- ... -1.3021841

[PilotDAR]

Arnold said that she hopes that society “can create supportive, positive spaces where women can decide how they pump, where they pump.”

Those positive spaces can exist, but demonstrating compliance with an AC powered pump motor is a certification issue. I'm confident that the crew was operating the aircraft within its limitations when they objected to the pump being plugged in to the aircraft electrical system. Even a battery powered pump motor probably should not be run in the aircraft without the crew's acceptance. I have performed EMI tests where the interference was so great, that all crew members simultaneously ripped the headsets from our heads, as the noise was so loud - though that was a bigger source than a small motor.

If "society" wants these provisions in aircraft, society will find a way to pay for the design, installation and certification of them - or decide that certification of aircraft systems is not important to them after all. Society, would you rather fly aboard an aircraft which is tested and proven safe and compliant? Or have your special needs met? You might not be able to have both....

[5x5]

Boy, I love it when people try to make their personal "issue" the primary concern. No one said she couldn't pump, just that she couldn't use her plug in electric one. A manual or battery powered one would have been fine. If she wasn't bright enough to have one of those along as backup should the electric one fail, she's not too bright getting into an airplane for 8 hours. But of course, she didn't want to use one of those - she wanted to (and of course had the right to) use the plug in one.

A bit off-track, but it's what came to mind for me. She's quoted as saying "‘I need you to find a solution,’”.
https://youtu.be/FXI21S4ZWJU

[Beefitarian]

Watching the video it sounded like one of the few times Mrs. Arnold had not recieved an award for participating.

[Instructor_Mike]

I can see some grey areas here.

I've had to load electric wheelchairs in the back of a dash-8 with a forklift. It's not easy and it does take up a lot of space. There are also risks to the loading crews if something does go wrong in loading. It can be accommodated in the dash but if the door isn't big enough then it's simple physics. Choose another airline or another route. It seems that Air Can may have dropped the ball on giving him options or maybe he ignored the options because they were not to his standards I don't know.

I'm on a King Air and at the end of the day there is no bending physics. Manual folding chairs will fit through the door and into the back but not the electric ones. If you need to travel and you have an electric wheel chair then your options are going to be limited.

I guess something else to consider would be if he had decided to charter a Lear 35. He says that he wants to go and the company says they can't accommodate then who is at fault?

[Beefitarian]

Has anyone checked the batteries on that chair. Certain batteries are not supposed to fly because they can make a pretty nasty fire. If the chair has li-po batteries the size required to move an electric wheel chair would make a pretty big hole in an airplane if they burst into flame. Go on YouTube and checkout a relatively small rc car battery fire.

Maybe they don't use li-po batteries on wheel chairs because of it.