Georgian pan pan

[av8ts]

Would losing one Gen cause navigation failure and an emergency


Other
System/component failure or malfunction [non-powerplant]
System/component failure or malfunction [powerplant]
Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type:Incident Occurrence Date:2016-07-06
Occurrence Time:1803 Z Day Or Night:day-time
Fatalities:0 Injuries:0
Canadian Aerodrome ID:CYYZ Aerodrome Name:TORONTO / LESTER B. PEARSON INTL ON (CYYZ)
Occurrence Location:TORONTO / LESTER B. PEARSON INTL ON (CYYZ)
Province:Ontario TC Region:Ontario Region
Country:Canada World Area:North America
Reported By:
NAV CANADA
Transportation Safety Board of Canada
AOR Number:202683-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation:Class 5 TSB Occurrence No:A16O0090
Occurrence Event Information
Aircraft Information
Registration Mark:GKGC Foreign Registration:
Flight #:GGN7311 Flight Rule:IFR
Aircraft Category:Aeroplane Country of Registration:Canada
Make:BOMBARDIER Model:CL-600-2B19 (SERIES 100)
Year Built:1999 Amateur Built:No
Engine Make:GENERAL ELECTRIC Engine Model:CF34-3B1
Engine Type:Turbo fan Gear Type:Land
Phase of Flight:Climb Damage:No Damage
Owner:Air Georgian Limited
Operator:AIR GEORGIAN LIMITED (5559)
Operator Type:Commercial CARs Subpart:705
Aircraft Event Information
Engine oil problem
Electrical problem
Aircraft navigation/communication equipment
Declared emergency/priority
Diversion
Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2016-07-12
Narrative:
An Air Georgian Canadair CL-600-2B19 (Series 100) (GGN7311) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Indianapolis, IN (KIND) departed Runway 23. Approximately 10 minutes after departure declared PAN PAN PAN citing electrical and navigation failure requesting return to CYYZ. Aircraft rescue and fire fighting (ARFF) advised. GGN7311 landed Runway 15L at 1818Z without incident. No operational impact.
O.P.I.: Further Action Required:No
Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2016-07-27
Narrative:
UPDATE: TSB#A16O0090: C-GKGC, a Bombardier CL-600-2B19 aircraft operated by Air Georgian as flight GGN7311 from Toronto/LBPIA, ON (CYYZ) to Indianapolis Intl, IN (KIND), was in the climb when the crew declared PAN PAN PAN approximately 10 minutes after departure, citing electrical and navigation failure. A return to CYYZ was requested and ARFF was advised. The flight landed on Runway 15L at 1818Z without further incident. The operator’s maintenance inspected the aircraft and discovered that the RH Generator had failed due to insufficient oil. The oil was replenished to the acceptable level and the aircraft was subsequently returned to service.
O.P.I.: Further Action Required:No

[Schooner69A]

I think declaring a "PAN" indicates a condition of urgency but not an emergency?

John

[Siddley Hawker]

Pan pan may get ya a couple of pizzas.

[linecrew]

...The operator’s maintenance inspected the aircraft and discovered that the RH Generator had failed due to insufficient oil. The oil was replenished to the acceptable level and the aircraft was subsequently returned to service.

I don't really know much about this sort of thing but wouldn't running a generator's oil supply out to the point of failure cause some sort of internal damage that simply topping it up wouldn't rectify?

[1jz]

Was the other GEN already in-op at dispatch?

[fish4life]

I was curious about that to, if I run bearings on a trailer axle really low on oil I replace my bearings since they are now due for failure shortly after.

[Eric Janson]

On the Jets I fly a warning is generated for low oil quantity or pressure and the procedure calls for the Generator drive to be disconnected.

This prevents damage to any of the components or the bearings.

I'm not familiar with the CRJ - perhaps someone who is can add more details.

[AOW]

I'm not familiar with the CRJ - perhaps someone who is can add more details.

The Bombardier CRJ100 and CRJ200 are a family of regional airliners manufactured by Bombardier, and based on the Canadair Challenger business jet. The aircraft was based on the Canadair Challenger design, which was purchased by Canadair from Bill Lear in 1976. The first flight was on 10 May 1991, and it obtained type certification in late 1992, with initial delivery to customers late in that year.
Or was that not what you were looking for? “Oh, it’s a big, pretty, white plane with red stripes, curtains in the window, and wheels. It looks like a big Tylenol.”

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

I'm not familiar with the CRJ - perhaps someone who is can add more details.

The Bombardier CRJ100 and CRJ200 are a family of regional airliners manufactured by Bombardier, and based on the Canadair Challenger business jet. The aircraft was based on the Canadair Challenger design, which was purchased by Canadair from Bill Lear in 1976. The first flight was on 10 May 1991, and it obtained type certification in late 1992, with initial delivery to customers late in that year.
Or was that not what you were looking for? “Oh, it’s a big, pretty, white plane with red stripes, curtains in the window, and wheels. It looks like a big Tylenol.”

And your an idiot...

He was referring to being unknowledgeable about the specific systems operation for the generators on the CRJ, not the 3rd grade description of it. But thanks for trying.

-JH

"Better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[longjon]

I believe the IDG (integrated drive generators) will give a overheat warning if low on oil.

[Bolter]

Not a complete answer, but the constant speed drives attached to the generators (IDGs) on the CRJ 100/200 can go offspeed in a steep climb if the oil is slightly low. Oil level doesn't have to be low enough to do any damage for this to occur, and the generators can be reset and operate normally for the remainder of the flt if that happens. I know of one incident where a crew lost both generators in the initial climb (APU was still up so APU generator took over). Got both gens back on-line when they lowered the nose, next stop was at a maint base, had the oil topped up, then continued on their merry way.
Related - when right generator kicks off, quite often the AC bus #2 gets kicked off momentarily until bus #1 takes over. AP, Yaw damper #2, and other systems get knocked off by the transfer and have to be reset. Doesn't normally affect nav systems so not sure why the crew in issue had a navigation problem (even if they lost IRS 2, IRS1 is available).

Hope this helps.

[BTD]

I'm not familiar with the CRJ - perhaps someone who is can add more details.

The Bombardier CRJ100 and CRJ200 are a family of regional airliners manufactured by Bombardier, and based on the Canadair Challenger business jet. The aircraft was based on the Canadair Challenger design, which was purchased by Canadair from Bill Lear in 1976. The first flight was on 10 May 1991, and it obtained type certification in late 1992, with initial delivery to customers late in that year.
Or was that not what you were looking for? “Oh, it’s a big, pretty, white plane with red stripes, curtains in the window, and wheels. It looks like a big Tylenol.”

And your an idiot...

He was referring to being unknowledgeable about the specific systems operation for the generators on the CRJ, not the 3rd grade description of it. But thanks for trying.

-JH

"Better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt."

You really couldn't see the joke?? Maybe you are trolling too.

I can never tell anymore.

[fish4life]

Not a complete answer, but the constant speed drives attached to the generators (IDGs) on the CRJ 100/200 can go offspeed in a steep climb if the oil is slightly low. Oil level doesn't have to be low enough to do any damage for this to occur, and the generators can be reset and operate normally for the remainder of the flt if that happens. I know of one incident where a crew lost both generators in the initial climb (APU was still up so APU generator took over). Got both gens back on-line when they lowered the nose, next stop was at a maint base, had the oil topped up, then continued on their merry way.
Related - when right generator kicks off, quite often the AC bus #2 gets kicked off momentarily until bus #1 takes over. AP, Yaw damper #2, and other systems get knocked off by the transfer and have to be reset. Doesn't normally affect nav systems so not sure why the crew in issue had a navigation problem (even if they lost IRS 2, IRS1 is available).

Hope this helps.

Thanks, it's nice to get an intelligent answer with actual knowledge in it.

[pelmet]

They didn't declare an emergency. They declared a Pan Pan which is "Urgency—A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance. "

If they had a navigation issue and or possibly some complications from their generator failure, it seems appropriate to me.

That being said, there does appear to be a tendency to declare an unnecessary mayday "A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance." A few are seen below.

Occurrence Summary:
C-GEWQ, a Jazz Aviation Lp de Havilland Dash 8-300 operating as flight JZA8870, was in the climb from Windsor, ON (CYQG) to Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl, ON (CYYZ) when the number 2 hydraulic fluid quantity started to decrease. The fluid went from 2.5 Q to 1.0 Q in about 60 seconds and the number 2 Hyd Isol Valve and associated caution lights illuminated. An emergency was declared with Detroit ATS; the QRH checklists items were completed. The aircraft returned to CYQG and landed uneventfully.

C-FNOE, a Boeing 787-9 operated by Air Canada as flight ACA84 from Toronto/LBPIA, ON (CYYZ) to Tel Aviv/Ben Gurion Intl, Israel (LLBG), was in cruise flight at FL370 approximately 75 nautical miles South of Cork, Ireland, when the EICAS generated a "CREW OXYGEN LOW" alert. The crew declared a MAYDAY and diverted to London/Heathrow, England (EGLL) for maintenance action.


C-FCAE, an Air Canada Boeing B767-300 operating as flight ACA810 Toronto/LBPIA, ON (CYYZ) to Istanbul/Atatürk Intl, Turkey (LTBA), experienced a control issue during the landing roll-out on Runway 05 at LTBA. While the speed was below 80 knots, the flight crew noticed the aircraft veering to the right side of the runway after the autobrakes had been disarmed. The aircraft stopped on the runway and the crew declared a MAYDAY with ATC. The brakes and steering were tested, and with no issues noted, the aircraft taxied to the gate. Subsequently, the operator’s maintenance performed an autobrake/antiskid control unit BITE test, a pedal brake test (IAW AMM 32-41-08), and a tires and wear pins inspection. All systems were considered serviceable and the aircraft was returned to service.

N662US, a Delta Airlines Boeing B747-400, was operating as flight DAL275 from Detroit/Metropolitan Wayne County, MI (KDTW) to Tokyo/New Tokyo Intl, Japan (RJAA). When in cruise flight approximately 150 nautical miles northeast of Thunder Bay, ON (CYQT), the crew observed an indication of low crew oxygen quantity. An emergency was declared, a descent to 10 000 feet was executed as well as fuel dumping while diverting to Minneapolis-St. Paul Intl/Wold- Chamberlain, MN (KMSP).

[pelmet]

Speaking of unnecessary Maydays....

"N114HQ, an Embraer 170-200LR aircraft operated by Republic Airlines, was conducting flight RPA4496 from Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl, ON (CYYZ) to Philadelphia Intl, PA (KPHL). During the climb after takeoff from CYYZ, the flight crew declared an emergency due to the forward cargo compartment fire suppression system failure. The aircraft returned to CYYZ and landed uneventfully with ARFF standing by.

The operator’s maintenance placed the FWD Cargo Fire EXT on MEL 26-23-00-1 and eventually replaced the forward compartment fire bottle. An operational check was performed and no further faults were found. The aircraft was returned to service."

[GyvAir]

Was it also on fire?

[pelmet]

Speaking of unnecessary Maydays....

"N114HQ, an Embraer 170-200LR aircraft operated by Republic Airlines, was conducting flight RPA4496 from Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl, ON (CYYZ) to Philadelphia Intl, PA (KPHL). During the climb after takeoff from CYYZ, the flight crew declared an emergency due to the forward cargo compartment fire suppression system failure. The aircraft returned to CYYZ and landed uneventfully with ARFF standing by.

Another unnecessary emergency declaration....

N6713Y, a Boeing 757-200 aircraft operated by Delta Airlines, was conducting flight DAL1088 from Minneapolis-St. Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain, MN (KMSP) to Anchorage/Ted Stevens Intl, AK (PANC). During cruise flight at FL360, the flight crew noticed that the oxygen system pressure indication was at 30 pounds per square inch (psi). The Captain tested his oxygen mask and noted that it was not functioning. The flight crew actioned the QRH and initiated a diversion to Whitehorse/Erik Nielsen Intl, YT (CYXY). While on approach to CYXY, the flight crew declared an emergency. DAL1088 landed without further incident. Maintenance personnel observed a leak on the captain’s oxygen mask hose connection and replaced the oxygen mask and storage box. Additionally, the crew oxygen regulator was replaced.

[pelmet]

C-GWEO, a de Havilland DHC-8-402 aircraft operated by WestJet Encore, was conducting flight WEN3463 from Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier Intl, ON (CYOW) to Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl, ON (CYYZ). During the climb to cruising altitude after departure, a leaking door seal was discovered. It was determined that the aircraft was pressurizing normally and as a result, the flight crew elected to continue the flight to CYYZ. As a precaution, an emergency was declared and the aircraft landed without further incident.

[Inverted2]

C-GWEO, a de Havilland DHC-8-402 aircraft operated by WestJet Encore, was conducting flight WEN3463 from Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier Intl, ON (CYOW) to Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl, ON (CYYZ). During the climb to cruising altitude after departure, a leaking door seal was discovered. It was determined that the aircraft was pressurizing normally and as a result, the flight crew elected to continue the flight to CYYZ. As a precaution, an emergency was declared and the aircraft landed without further incident.

At least they turned on the bleeds this time.