Question About Bonds

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Hi everyone. Before I open a can of worms, I want to put in the caveat that I know how bonds work.. I've signed them before and always stayed until the end of the term, but I have two friends who have recently left the same company which has a bond and something came up over drinks that I've never thought of before.

Both of these people left the same company around the same time, with one owing a couple thousand and the other owing almost the entire amount. They both told me that when they left, the company would be in touch with a final statement outlining the amount owing and the payment options available. They both understood that leaving would require payment of the remaining bond and they accepted that as a cost of moving onto better things.

The interesting thing is that they've been separated from this company for the better part of a year now and neither has received any correspondence from the company regarding payment of the bond and this leaves them in a sticky situation; they have set aside money for the payment but can't use it until they know if the company will ever come after them for the money. And, they don't want to contact the company because if they honestly did fall through the cracks, they don't want to remind the company that there are outstanding bonds that can be collected.

So my question is this: What would you do? Would you contact the company and say "Hey, I have this money for you that you forgot about" or do you just leave it be and hope they never come asking for it. But if that's the case, how long do you wait until you consider that money yours to use again? 6 months? A year? 5 years? If they don't collect after a certain period of time is the bond invalid or is it valid for eternity and they can collect at any time? I haven't seen their bond agreement but they said that there is no written stipulation that it shall be collected within "x" months or years.

It's a hard situation for them because the cash they set aside is essentially unusable until they know one way or the other if they'll need to pay it back, and it's not an insignificant amount either. Again, they are fully prepared to pay the bond if and when the company contacts them, so they're not trying to "skip" out on the bond.. they're just looking for advice, and I don't know what I'd do if I was in their situation.

And lastly, no it's not me. Both of these people are on AvCanada and don't want to use their usernames because some people know who they are. Plus, I'm just curious!

[photofly]

I don't want to be too po-faced, but I'm sure you and your friends know what the honourable thing to do is.

It's a hard situation

With great respect, holding ten or twenty thousand dollars in the bank to cover an acknowledged debt until their creditor sends them the paperwork is not what most most people would call one of life's great difficulties.

[lownslow]

I recently faced a similar situation where I went out for dinner but after the meal it seemed like I waited a really long time for the bill. It never came so hopefully I just slipped through the cracks and I certainly didn't want to remind my waiter just in case I got lucky. I have the money set aside in my wallet just in case they send me an invoice but it's been a while and I want to spend it on other things.

What should I do?

[flyinhigh]

Statute of limitations I believe is up to 2 years.

After 2 years, the case is essentially null and void. I am no lawyer of course, but from many cases I am aware of anything after 2 years is very difficult to collect on.

As for lownslow, I suspect after waiting for you bill for 2 years, you may need to find a hobby.

[Old fella]

Easy answer..... contact a qualified lawyer who has special knowledge in such matters for appropriate legal advice. I would assume there is appropriate documentation/correspondence with specific stipulations.

[photofly]

Here's some free legal advice, worth everything you paid for it.

(This is the law applicable in Ontario)

Basic Limitation Period

Basic limitation period
4. Unless this Act provides otherwise, a proceeding shall not be commenced in respect of a claim after the second anniversary of the day on which the claim was discovered. 2002, c. 24, Sched. B, s. 4.

Discovery
5. (1) A claim is discovered on the earlier of,

(a) the day on which the person with the claim first knew,

(i) that the injury, loss or damage had occurred,

(ii) that the injury, loss or damage was caused by or contributed to by an act or omission,

(iii) that the act or omission was that of the person against whom the claim is made, and

(iv) that, having regard to the nature of the injury, loss or damage, a proceeding would be an appropriate means to seek to remedy it; and

(b) the day on which a reasonable person with the abilities and in the circumstances of the person with the claim first ought to have known of the matters referred to in clause (a). 2002, c. 24, Sched. B, s. 5 (1).

Presumption
(2) A person with a claim shall be presumed to have known of the matters referred to in clause (1) (a) on the day the act or omission on which the claim is based took place, unless the contrary is proved. 2002, c. 24, Sched. B, s. 5 (2).

Demand obligations
(3) For the purposes of subclause (1) (a) (i), the day on which injury, loss or damage occurs in relation to a demand obligation is the first day on which there is a failure to perform the obligation, once a demand for the performance is made. 2008, c. 19, Sched. L, s. 1.

They have two years to pursue you in court. The two years begins once they write and ask you for payment. Until they ask for payment the clock doesn't start ticking.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Yeah I figured the easiest thing to do is contact the company and ask. That way it's resolved one way or the other and the issue can be put to bed. They're reading this forum so the advice about the lawyer would be good too.

Once I know the outcome I'll post it here so people that may have his situation in the future can get some guidance.

[trey kule]

Let me see....
Bond signed
Decided to leave early
Now hoping that the company has forgotten, and they will
Not have to honour their word,
Lawyering up is a good suggestion to make certain they can weasel out of it.,,
Yep. Proud to have them in our profession

I do wonder what motivated the OP to post on behalf of his friends. And I do hope that any company having outstanding bonds will act to avoid any statatory weasel clauses

[A V I A T O]

A contract is a contract and bonds are in place for this reason. However I believe a more transparent conversation should have taken place as soon as it became apparent that said candidates would be approaching a position they would leave before the contract period ended, especially with intentions to pay back the prorated amount.

Where it gets grey and having an amiable conversation like two rational adults some things to consider are: reasons for leaving (simply greener pastures, family, joining the competition with the sole intention to sink the current company etc) and most importantly, time remaining and crcumstances where a departure would benefit either party. For instance "hey boss, i know my recurrent ppc is scheduled for next month, since im leaving and wont need the extra training and renewal, is there any costs that can be tacked off my owing amount if i leave before then." Or if theres layoffs coming for the winter, be the brave volunteer.

[av8ts]

Put the money in an account paying the highest interest you can find. Consider the money gone. Let the interest compound. If the company comes looking for it , pay them. When you retire spend all of it

[timel]

I know some pilots who left their jobs with an active bond, and the company decided to erase the debt because they were good folks, could it be the case?

[Rookie50]

Let me see....
Bond signed
Decided to leave early
Now hoping that the company has forgotten, and they will
Not have to honour their word,
Lawyering up is a good suggestion to make certain they can weasel out of it.,,
Yep. Proud to have them in our profession

I do wonder what motivated the OP to post on behalf of his friends. And I do hope that any company having outstanding bonds will act to avoid any statatory weasel clauses

Let's see, we all expect employers to act honourably in every capacity. Companies are slammed for even having training bonds.

Why should we expect any less from key employees?

The answer is obvious. All you have, and all you are, is your honor. A reputation built over years can be destroyed in moments.

[DonutHole]

Wait awhile and call. Ask them for a copy of the agreement.

If they lost the paperwork...

That's best case.

Kind of a dink move to try and slide under the radar, but bonds are also kind of a dink move...

Kinda hard to pick a winner

[Gear Jerker]

The right thing to do is to contact the company and ask about payment arrangement. In the event that they are considering forgiving the debt, as does sometimes occur, by being honourable about it you are increasing your chances of them doing you a favour and letting it go.

[complexintentions]

If you sign an agreement, certainly it's your job to honour it.

However, it is not your job to do their administrative work for them. The extent of your obligation is to pay back what you owe, when asked. Nothing more.

Continue to do as you are doing: be professional, have the money and pay it promptly if requested. I'd do as others have said and set it aside and remove it from my own books until such time as the company claimed it, or lost their ability to do so.

This would be my advice if you are dealing with it strictly as a business, which is how I view my career. If the employers were family or your buddies, obviously a softer tact may be taken.

But doing more than legally required in a professional relationship is foolish, IMO.

[JBI]

From a legal perspective, the above information is generally correct. However, there ARE situations where the regular two year limitation period doesn't apply. It sounds like the outstanding amount of the bond is not insubstantial, it's definitely worth seeing a lawyer regarding their situation as to when the limitation period is likely up. For example, there can be 'discoverability' issues where one party could claim they didn't know that there was a right of recovery etc. I'm not saying that's the case here, but something to check out before they start using the money that they've put aside.

From a ethics perspective, it's tough to say. My personal thoughts about bonds are similar to the above poster. Bonds are a commercial contract. There's no feelings involved. Folks on this forum get all bent out of shape about different forms of bonds when, at the end of the day, you can choose to sign one or not. I don't believe that pilots should then try and wiggle out of a bond after the fact when payment is requested/demanded (there are plenty of court cases where pilots, after the fact, make unsuccessful claims about the safety of the operation etc. as to why they should not have to pay out their bond). But it does sound like the bond issue was discussed prior to your friends' departure and it was the company that simply hasn't followed up on their contractual rights.

I always let a cashier know if I notice that they've given me too much change or didn't charge me for an item that I clearly meant to purchase. But in this situation, if a company said that they'd discuss the bond at a later date, but never followed up, should you bring it to their attention? I do feel it is different than a cashier making a mistake with change. Is it up to your friends to make the company aware of its legal rights?

[Old fella]

Going on my 66th year and 35 yrs in this business of aviation, I am quite happy to say and indeed proud of myself in that I never became involved in any signed bonds to secure employment. I have indeed heard of horror stories of how employees were manipulated, lied to,cheated on,disrespected, on and on. I have personal deep convictions against paying a prospective employer for the privilege of working for them, that is my view and I stand by it bar none. Others may not share my position- fair enough.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

But it does sound like the bond issue was discussed prior to your friends' departure and it was the company that simply hasn't followed up on their contractual rights.... Is it up to your friends to make the company aware of its legal rights?

Yes this is the situation they described. When they returned all their passes, company manuals, etc., they were sent an email by the company acknowledging receipt of said items and that the company would contact them regarding payment options (lump sum required, "x" dollars per month, etc.). But now it's been almost a year and they haven't heard anything.

As for someone earlier who mentioned about bond forgiveness, this company has forgiven bonds before but has also come after people with collection agencies. It's appears to be totally hit-or-miss. They told me that even internal upgrades are bonded, however in some cases the training was commenced or they even finished their upgrade PPC before the company realized they didn't sign a bond, and then they try to force them into the bond after the training has been completed, which I understand is illegal since the bond is a payment for services provided (type specific training that benefits the employee). If you've already completed the training, you should not have to sign the bond because at that point, legally, you gain nothing (you already have the type rating). So even though yes, you knew there was an upgrade bond, it's not your fault if the company doesn't ask you to sign it until after the fact. This all leads me to believe that there is a very loosey-goosey application of the bond at this company and it's more of a case-by-case basis rather than a uniform application for all.

But back to my friends, they don't know whether their bonds have been forgiven and were just never advised, or that they are expected to repay it but the company's sloppy record-keeping and hit-or-miss application of the bond let them fall through the cracks. They will pay if required.. they're not trying to "weasel out," but who would go out of their way to give over a large sum of money if they don't have to? Especially if they were in fact forgiven and not advised, but upon contacting the company, the company changes their mind and says "Oh yeah! Thanks for reminding us. Please pay us back now and thanks for the free cash." Keep in mind that their bond MIGHT have been forgiven but they don't know for sure. Only by contacting the company will they find out.

I hope you see their conundrum, regardless of whether you think bonds are a good thing or a necessary evil. I sure do. I've signed one Promissory Note and one bond in my career and honoured my word and stayed to the end of the contract, so I've never had to deal with something like this.

So the whole story comes down to this: If it was your $10,000 on the line, what would you do?

1. Hope it was forgiven and continue on as normal, but never know for sure and you might get a call one day to repay?
2. Hope that you are expected to pay it back but you fell through the cracks and they'll never come calling?
3. Take the chance that it was forgiven and contact the company to make sure, but who might then demand payment?

These are the 3 scenarios I can think of that we talked about.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I just thought of another scenario to turn this issue on its head and take it away from the divisive aviation/bond context.

Say you're renovating your house and come across a box with $10,000 in it which isn't yours. It could have been the previous owners or the owners before that; there's no way to tell. (Yes, there's dates on the money but for this case say the house was bought and sold several times over a short period of time so it could be any one of the several recent owners' money).

Do you contact the previous owners who might then take it as theirs even though it might have been someone else's, or do you look at it as a lucky windfall and keep quiet, hoping the previous owner(s) don't come calling one day asking about a box of money?

[photofly]

The day someon can "pretend" your training bond should be repaid to them and not to the company that loaned you the money, or steal your training, is the day your analogy will make any sense. Last time I looked a shoe-box full of money was negotiable currency. A training bond is a debt, with a creditor and a debtor. Not even remotely similar.

If you still can't decide what's right after reading the comments in this thread then there's no hope for you.

[Old fella]

Tip off the CRA, if individuals have to pay back monies on training bonds well that is income that company has to show, especially if said company is writing off your training as a deduction on their business tax requirements. Who knows, maybe some of these less that stellar operations are doing things on the business end that may raise eyebrows from the CRA audit Division especially if trends are noticed. Just saying

[xsbank]

I bought a new truck yesterday and the dealer did all the stuff, changed the plates, did the transfer, did a walkaround and told me how the doodads worked but the finance guy was busy. The sales manager shook my hand and waved me off and wished me luck. They only had my deposit cheque!
There was no expectation on my part that they were giving me a free truck. When I pointed out that they did not have my cheque yet, they were embarrassed and quickly relieved me of my dosh.

Phone the company or better yet, visit them and take your chequebook. You have to honour your debt. Pay it off and move on.

[valleyboy]

I don't think there is anyone out there that thinks bonds as they have evolved are a great thing. They are always one sided and take advantage of the green pilot who will do or sign anything for a job. We have to admit to shooting ourselves in the foot and giving the employers the idea in the first place. Sadly they, the employers got caught up in the same greed as pilots who jumped ship after training.

If this idea is to remain and i think it will bonds should be turned more into contracts. Protection for both parties is paramount. Pilots need protection from the "bad"guys out there who want your souls and expect you to work illegally if need be to get the job done. Right now if one challenges the wording you are just refused employment. There is also the issue of inflated training costs. What happens if you already are qualified on type. These are all questions that never seem to be addressed. There has to be a better system or at least a more fair way of doing this.

Maybe if all carriers refused to hire anyone who has worked less that 2 years for any given company. This is now made more difficult by companies who insist on pilots bonding for all upgrades on different types. That is criminal and is certainly a WTF moment.

[crazyaviator]

And, they don't want to contact the company because if they honestly did fall through the cracks, they don't want to remind the company that there are outstanding bonds that can be collected.

And they wonder WHY the industry has bonds ,,,,,PAY your F______ bills

[Rookie50]

To those complaining about bonds, honouring contracts, the companies that require them, and how horrible every employer is: -- one thought:

(I'm not talking about the unsafe operators. Do your homework -- no one forces anyone to accept work in the first place with such (minority of) employers).

Start - your - own - company! --- and see how easy it is on the other side.

No, won't do it?


Sorry, but the sheer entitlement attitude out there -- in every industry I might add -- is troubling for the remnant of free enterprise society left.

Back to the NFL game....