Chandelles

[shurshot17]

Anyone able to give a good explaining of how to do a proper chandelle. I've been taught multiple ways and read different ways.

Straight and level. Enter 30 degree bank. Pitch up and hold for 5 -10 knots above stall Through 90 degree turn. Last 90 degrees hold same pitch, slowly roll out to 180 degrees of initial heading?

[PilotDAR]

I caringly suggest that if you are unsure of how to fly a chandelle, you seek qualified in flight instruction. It is not ideal that aerobatic maneuvers be "taught" in internet posts.

[nightbird]

Actually that's more like maneuvering in slow flight, not really an aerobatic maneuver.

[trey kule]

The history of the chandele is an interesting one.
And done properly, IMO an excellent training manoeuver for coordination skill development.
But pilot dar has given you some good advice. North of 49 there does not seem to be that many pilots who really understand how to properly execute the manoever and the subtleties involved. A good instructor who can do it properly themselves, explain it, and help you improve is critically important.

It and lazy eights should be included in the Canadian training curriculumn.

[Moose47]

G'day

I thought you were talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zti4Wxit48

[PilotDAR]

not really an aerobatic maneuver.

Well,

CAR 101.01

aerobatic manoeuvre means a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying;

Or, thought of differently, are you prepared to recover a sudden unusual attitude? A chandelle is not "hard" aerobatics, but still should be flown with the preparedness appropriate to aerobatic flight.

And yes, it should be trained at the PPL level, along with a few other semi aerobatic maneuvers.

[cgzro]

Well the trick is to stay co-ordinated so nothing bad happens if you stall.
Technique depends on plane, some require more rudder than others and some need more pitch up.
So no simple formula and I cant easily give a recipe here although you could work up to the full 90 bank and near stall progressively and it would be sensible to have departure stall and spin training first.

[shurshot17]

I have been taught to do it with multiple instructors... just slightly different methods of doing so. Just trying to figure out which one is right.

[Hockaloogie]

Get Colonel Sanders to teach you. Colonel Sanders is ALWAYS right.

[North Shore]

I'm sure that the Colonel would provide more than competent instruction.

I had always thought that a chandelle was a fancy name for a wingover, and that lazy eights were just linked wingovers; a little youtube investigation, thanks to the OP, and that does not appear to be the case..

[TG]

Best advice in this topic: From PilotDAR.


??? advice: Opposite ailerons to the way you "boot" your rudder on the top of your chandelle.



Just don't take it for gospel without asking Colonel Sanders/take proper aerobatics intructions.

[cgzro]

You never "boot" any control (especially the rudder) for any aerobatics certainly not a chandelle the crux of is recovery to straight and level slow flight from a near 90 degree banked turn which requires finesse.

On the CS topic, he has a right to arrogance on this subject and youd be well advised to listen to the details even if you dont like his bed side manner.

[photofly]

Sounds like some people are confusing a chandelle with a hammerhead or maybe a wing over.

[TG]

Sounds like some people are confusing a chandelle with a hammerhead or maybe a wing over.

Yes you are right. The initial post description had me thinking about thammerhead's figure but somehow my brain sticked to "chandelle" as word.

[cgzro]

FYI- You dont "boot" the rudder in a HH either. You push and observe and adjust when doing aerobatics the same way you should do for any other flying. Ive seen pedals broken, stops overrun etc from excessive force. In fact a HH does not require full rudder, it takes just the right amount to get the pivot going, any more just screws things up.

[Panama Jack]

Your description of a chandelle differs considerably from the way I learned it and the way it is taught by the FAA (it is a required Performance Maneuvre taught for the Commercial Pilot-Airplane rating). The way the FAA teaches it, it is not an aerobatic maneuvre and there is no stall involved.

A decription of the maneuvre, including common errors, is covered in the FAA Airplane Flying Manual (FAA-H-8083-3A) which can be downloaded for free from the FAA website.

[5x5]

Essentially the chandelle is basically the same as a climbing turn/departure stall without the stall part. After coming around 180 degrees you level off at minimal controllable airspeed or slow flight. I hope all schools in Canada are teaching PPL students a climbing turn stall and recovery so it wouldn't be any kind of stretch to simply avoid the stall and recover to level after 180 degrees. And if it stalls during the chandelle procedure, big deal, they already have practiced a climbing turn stall recovery.

Plus, in Canada, even it would really get away and enter spin territory a PPL student would be prepared since...

A demonstration of the full spin, performed by the student, is required during private pilot training. Students should be competent in recovery from a full spin while avoiding a secondary stall, excessive airspeed, or excessive altitude loss.

Not really a big hole in Canadian training as I see it.

[trampbike]

I had always thought that a chandelle was a fancy name for a wingover, and that lazy eights were just linked wingovers; a little youtube investigation, thanks to the OP, and that does not appear to be the case..

Same here!

Read through this just now https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... 083-3B.pdf, and it looks like a Chandelle is really just a climbing 180deg turn, while a Lazy-8 is 2 wingovers at a shallow bank.

[trey kule]

I did not want to get into this but.

The maximum bank during a chandelle is 30 degrees. It is not an aerobatic manoevet.
The problem is the cowboys that have no real idea what they are supposed to be accomplishing during the manoever. I have been sitting in the back or right seat on many occassions when someone told me they knew how to do one .....and had no clue.

The FAA has several good explanations of how to do one properly. It takes some pretty good hands and feet to do it precisely and co ordinated.
Any good instructor who really can do one and explain it will be able to brief you quickly and then demonstrate it perfectly. Rolling out of a bank as you are slowing down (deaccelerating), so that you end up 90 degrees exactly from the beginning of the roll out (180 from the start of the manoevre) with everything conordinated and the stall horn giving a little chirp takes some skill.

The manoevre was developed in the first world war. After dropping bombs on the enemy trenches the objective was to climb out of small arms fire while turning to bravely fly for home.
As the plane deaccelerates and the bank is gently increasing to 30 degrees at the 1/2 way and then smoothy rolling out while continuing to climb takes co ordination and skill. If done properly the bank and max pitch angle should be achieved exactly after 90 deg of turn, and then at the 180 the wings should just have rolled back level and the stall warning horn should chirp. The ball shoud stay centered the whole time. Slowly, and I mean slowly rolling into a climbing bank, and co ordinating it perfectly takes real skill.

Hamfisting it into a poorly co ordinated 60 degree bank is not what it is about.


The same goes for the lazy eight. Different objectives but excellent manoevers.

To the op...The link is a good one. You need to get the correct advice, and you are not going to get it here, and, unless you are very lucky, from most Canadian instructors. And if you think it is just a 180 turning climb you are either a super pilot or just deluding yourself. Rolling out at a constant rate of about 1/2 degree. a secon while maintaining a perfect pitch and the ball centered is not so easy. It is not an aerobatic or hey watch this manoever. Done well its impressive..but seldom done well without alot of practice