Cheap block time YUL area?

[gonzo21]

Did a search but its mostly dated threads with few replies. Interested in any flying clubs/anyone that has cheap block time in the Montreal and surrounding (within 1-200km) areas.

Cheers!

[trampbike]

ALM par avion / Aero Partenaires, based in Mascouche have a PA28 and a very nicely equiped 172 available for blocks of hours.
http://aeropartenaires.com

[PilotDAR]

Block time, great idea! A commitment to business is good for everyone involved.

However, would you feel confident flying aircraft presented to you as being "cheap" by an operator? Perhaps it would be better to expect to pay a fair rate for the use of a well maintained aircraft, to an operator who actually makes a profit, pays their staff decently, and will still be around in a few years?

Sorry to sound negative about your inquiry, but some of us make our living in Canadian aviation. We're not getting rich, but darned if we want to be thought of as "cheap" in the quality service we provide, so renters can have safe aircraft available!

[5x5]

Agreed PilotDAR.

Also, I fail to see the savings for an operator that would come through selling block time at a reduced rate. Especially since the block time is typically for a fairly short period while someone gets what they need for a rating or something and then are never seen again. It's not a long-term commitment that would guarantee lasting, sustainable income.

If you think about it, every student that signs up is basically committing to just that - 200+ hours (PPL, CPL, ME/IFR). So why don't they get a block time deal?

And besides, most FTUs, which is where most aircraft rentals come from, have rates that are set to be as competitive as possible while trying to sustain the business. It's simply not a high margin enterprise. There's an undeniable truth in all business that you can't make up in volume what you loose by undervaluing your product.

[Rookie50]

Block time, great idea! A commitment to business is good for everyone involved.

However, would you feel confident flying aircraft presented to you as being "cheap" by an operator? Perhaps it would be better to expect to pay a fair rate for the use of a well maintained aircraft, to an operator who actually makes a profit, pays their staff decently, and will still be around in a few years?

Sorry to sound negative about your inquiry, but some of us make our living in Canadian aviation. We're not getting rich, but darned if we want to be thought of as "cheap" in the quality service we provide, so renters can have safe aircraft available!

Yes, Here's a model to follow:

A) expect block / rental time to be "cheap" then,

B) complain about low pay in the industry for AME's, Pilots and Instructors.

I'm seeing a contradiction here.

Perhaps the government should take over and subsidize both rental rates and employee pay with taxpayer money to meet everyone's needs, as I'm having a hard time seeing both needs met by a profit seeking business. Oh I forgot. Making a profit is evil in Canada.

[photofly]

I think the OP would probably say that it's rather "socialist" and Kanadian of anyone to expect him, the customer, to worry about how much profit the operator is making. He's just asking who's got the cheapest product that suits his need at this time.

Real devotees of capitalism should be eager to answer his question with accurate information. The fact of his asking it is evidence of the free market in operation.

[gonzo21]

Block time, great idea! A commitment to business is good for everyone involved.

However, would you feel confident flying aircraft presented to you as being "cheap" by an operator? Perhaps it would be better to expect to pay a fair rate for the use of a well maintained aircraft, to an operator who actually makes a profit, pays their staff decently, and will still be around in a few years?

Sorry to sound negative about your inquiry, but some of us make our living in Canadian aviation. We're not getting rich, but darned if we want to be thought of as "cheap" in the quality service we provide, so renters can have safe aircraft available!

You have a valid point, perhaps I phrased my question poorly. Of course I wouldn't want to risk my own or anyone's safety in a transaction like this. Sadly in this industry, those that offer the lowest costs, regardless of the product or service they offer are generally rewarded.

Could you advise me on any organizations selling block time in the previously specified area that keeps their aircraft well maintained and pays their staff decently? If the cost is reflected in the quality of the product, I will certainly play a role my decision.

Cheers

[Shiny Side Up]

The fact of his asking it is evidence of the free market in operation.

Indeed it is. Gloriously so.

In general, block time is a bad idea for both the buyer and the seller. For the seller, its a losing strategy, stealing from Peter to pay Paul so to speak. It comes up usually as a means to get cash now, on paper increase utilization, but in the end sell the commodity for less than market value. Several points, first f they have a utililization problem, they really got to look at their market. While its possible that they are priced above market value, its unlikely since most flight schools are priced on their rental rates carefully to cover costs, and one will discover that frequently all things considered prices are equal for equal product. On the customer side, if a school is having cash flow problems, is this the place you want to be handing over money for? The same might be said for the provider, customers looking to buy below market rate have to be numerous enough, to consider lowering your rate, but on an ad hoc basis are likely looking to purchase below market rate because in the end they can't afford the product in the first place. This type of customer in my experience is too much trouble to worth cultivating for a lot of reasons.

In the aspect of the free market, customers looking for a product below market value must accept that they are either a) looking to swindle the seller, or b) going to accept a decrease in quality of said product. I'm not sure that either reason is a good one, the latter especially when dealing with airplanes. Either way, either entity engaging in this is likely to be a lose-lose scenario, and the free market works as intended. Insolvent businesses hasten their demise, and customers who can't afford product, don't get product in the end. Or, as likely in aviation, are eliminated from the market.

To the OP, buyer beware.

Now that said, block time sometimes can be arranged at between individuals, where profit isn't the motive, but rather increasing the airplane's utilization with the ultimate goal of not having the thing corrode into the ground. This is limited in a good sense between individuals who have a long standing relationship, and have built a mutual trust. Ultimately if you want cheap flight time in OPAs, make friends at the aerodrome. Likely in the end, if one plotted a cost vs time analysis of time at the airport vs reduced flying costs it will probably come out a wash. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

[trampbike]

For me, buying blocks of hours isn't to save money over renting at a flight school, I do it mostly for the flexibility it gives me. It's just very hard to find a school that will let me take an airplane out for a few weeks to go wherever I want. Buying a block of hours allows me to enjoy some of the advantages of owning an airplane for a short while.

[Olegmagellan]

Ok gentlemen,your positions are cleare and undoubted,but the question regarding where to rent a plane ,for least price,still opened.
Really need to build 140 h in YUL area,before bad weather will arrive.
If any have an Idea,please PM me,preferably.
Ready to start at nearest days.

[Olegmagellan]

Any update?

[trampbike]

I answered the question already. Look at the first reply on this thread.

[Olegmagellan]

Hello anyone,I called them Piper 95$172-120$ If you pay 7000$ At once,dry no fuel no insurance.
If we consider 9-10 gal/h end fuel price is 1.70$,in summ we will have 135-160$+ insurance.
Where the deal?
CARGAIR ,on basis offer 140$ for C152 wet,no block time purchase necessary.
Correct me on if any.

[photofly]

You'd be hard pushed to burn 10 gallons per hour in a 172, unless you think the red knob is just a coat hook. You don't say which Piper, but I suspect the same applies.

[trampbike]

-It does include insurance.
-If you burn 9-10 gph in their PA-28, you are using it wrong (I'm burning between 7 and 8, depending how much of a hurry I find myself in)
-A block of hours is awesome for the freedom it gives you. Take the plane away for a few weeks. Gain some real flying/life experience and skills. Go where gas is cheap (hint: it's south of here). If you're looking purely to save money while you're building hours (but really you should be seeing it as building experience), you're in the wrong business and should find a different hobby/future career.
- CYLQ has 100LL at 1.45/L. And even this is expensive compared to what you pay South of the border.
-CARGAIR 140$/h on a 152, go try it, and come back to us with all the extra fees that aren't all that well adertised. Also, a 152 will not give you the endurance and payload you might want for some awesome cross-countries.

Building hours can be an amazing experience, but you have to make it so. It's the only time in your life where you'll be able to fly wherever you want, pretty much however you want, at no extra cost (you'd be spending these hours anyway, whether it's by flying locally, or going to Panama and back...)

[Olegmagellan]

Thanks trampbike,great explanation, so could you quick calculate total hours price of Piper 28 with current 100LL and insurance.
Thanks again,check your PM

[trampbike]

Seems like you aim to get a CPL and work as a pilot. Correct?

I think I'd do everyone a disservice by calculating for you something you easily could calculate (all the info is out there, some of it right here in this thread), and as your focus seems to be only about saving the most money, no matter what, the urge to help you is actually quite low.

Cheers and good luck anyway,
Oli