Being gay in the flight deck...
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Being gay in the flight deck...
Hello everyone,
**I hope this is the right place to post this in (I'm new here, so please do let me know / move my post somewhere else if it's in the wrong section).**
I'll try to keep this short. Out of high school, I almost went to aviation school, however I chickened out because I wasn't sure the lifestyle fit me. I went into the corporate world instead. Finished my degree, worked for a bank, didn't really like it. At that time, I kept having second thoughts about the aviation field, so decided to try becoming a FA in order to see if I could sustain the lifestyle. I've been now FA for a major airline abroad (in the MEA region) for about 2 years.
The real reason I never pursued aviation was mainly due to the culture onboard. I've tried to spend a lot of time in the cockpit during my time here to 'test the waters' and speak to as many pilots as I could (at least the ones I felt comfortable talking to... which is not that many actually, at least here). Mostly female pilots were the ones who helped the most as they faced similar challenges dealing with the often 'macho' culture in the flight deck. Bottom line, it still feels like an old boys's club - and the topics of the day often revolve around the 'goods' of the female cabin crew at the back...
Although I've talked to many female pilots and their challenges, I've never heard the experiences of a gay pilot so I'm not sure where they stand. What I do know is that if you don't engage at the level the Captain expects you to, you might end up with an awkward 8 hour flight done in complete silence (which some female pilots attested to) - and that sounds like a pretty awful working environment... I am hopeful that it's better in the west, however I would like to hear your opinion.
As I'm now coming back to Canada, I need to make a decision if this is the right fit for me and I should pursue it..
I would like to hear your experiences working in the Canadian aviation context and hear from people who faced similar worries. Of course, anyone's opinion is welcomed.
Is it really 'as bad as it seems' ?
Thanks a lot in advance.
**I hope this is the right place to post this in (I'm new here, so please do let me know / move my post somewhere else if it's in the wrong section).**
I'll try to keep this short. Out of high school, I almost went to aviation school, however I chickened out because I wasn't sure the lifestyle fit me. I went into the corporate world instead. Finished my degree, worked for a bank, didn't really like it. At that time, I kept having second thoughts about the aviation field, so decided to try becoming a FA in order to see if I could sustain the lifestyle. I've been now FA for a major airline abroad (in the MEA region) for about 2 years.
The real reason I never pursued aviation was mainly due to the culture onboard. I've tried to spend a lot of time in the cockpit during my time here to 'test the waters' and speak to as many pilots as I could (at least the ones I felt comfortable talking to... which is not that many actually, at least here). Mostly female pilots were the ones who helped the most as they faced similar challenges dealing with the often 'macho' culture in the flight deck. Bottom line, it still feels like an old boys's club - and the topics of the day often revolve around the 'goods' of the female cabin crew at the back...
Although I've talked to many female pilots and their challenges, I've never heard the experiences of a gay pilot so I'm not sure where they stand. What I do know is that if you don't engage at the level the Captain expects you to, you might end up with an awkward 8 hour flight done in complete silence (which some female pilots attested to) - and that sounds like a pretty awful working environment... I am hopeful that it's better in the west, however I would like to hear your opinion.
As I'm now coming back to Canada, I need to make a decision if this is the right fit for me and I should pursue it..
I would like to hear your experiences working in the Canadian aviation context and hear from people who faced similar worries. Of course, anyone's opinion is welcomed.
Is it really 'as bad as it seems' ?
Thanks a lot in advance.
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
There's a facebook page that a friend of mine runs: Canadian Aviation Pride, and also their website: canadianaviationpride.org.
As far as I'm concerned, anybody who makes any type of a deal about it is an idiot.
Good luck!
As far as I'm concerned, anybody who makes any type of a deal about it is an idiot.
Good luck!
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
I wear flannel shirts, fly old bushplanes, am completely non polically correct and suffer from machoism!
With that said, I couldn't care less if you are of the other persuasion. It's none of my business after all.
I sincerely hope and trust that my fellow co-workers and fellow breathern have the same views of equality and respect while on duty.
Follow your dreams. Don't let your sexual orientation, fear of judgement or misgivings dictate your career path.
All the best, masalam.
TPC
With that said, I couldn't care less if you are of the other persuasion. It's none of my business after all.
I sincerely hope and trust that my fellow co-workers and fellow breathern have the same views of equality and respect while on duty.
Follow your dreams. Don't let your sexual orientation, fear of judgement or misgivings dictate your career path.
All the best, masalam.
TPC
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Don't let it worry you, nobody cares. But if you do end up working with a Neanderthal remember that he's going to be just as much of a d***head no matter what your preferences and probably nobody likes working with them. The flight deck is a unique place where you can chat for hours - or stay quiet for hours and it's all just normal.
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Im straight, I don't care who you love, worship, colour of skin.
Its a much more excepting scene now then generations past. I was a bush pilot at Kenn Borek Air, my roomie was gay and awesome and this was 12 years ago. I currently work at Westjet and I know we have gay pilots, no one cares.
Have no fear my friend.
Its a much more excepting scene now then generations past. I was a bush pilot at Kenn Borek Air, my roomie was gay and awesome and this was 12 years ago. I currently work at Westjet and I know we have gay pilots, no one cares.
Have no fear my friend.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Don't worry about it, with so many different personalities it's easy to work with someone you get along great with talking to the whole time and others that you share nothing in common with. This will happen if you are gay or straight, so don't let being gay keep you from it. I've worked with gay guys I got along great with and straight guys I didn't, their orientation didn't have anything to do with it. Personally if someone is interested in the outdoors I'll get along better with them than if they are interested in video games but either way everyone is always professional it's just the extra talking that does t happen as much.
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
First off
There is zero room, or excuse to "be gay in the flight deck"
It's not approiate nor relevant.
Now if you want to be "crew in the flight deck" that's great, and your sexual life has zero place at work regardless of where you put what with whoever.
Do your job and keep it professional and you won't have any problems.
Frankly why would you even bring up your sexuality at work???
I'm straight, I don't go around telling everyone to accept me for being straight, I don't talk about straight sex, I don't have bumper stickers about straight pride, it's no one business but mine and my partners. I completely fail to see why people decide to be defined by their sex, color, or sexual preference.
Good friend of mine was in the military as a officer for quite some time, later a successful CEO, no one under his command, or in the company later really knew he was gay, because it wasn't any of their damn business and did not have any relevance on how he commanded his soldiers, or ran the company, he was fine of his sexual orientation, but he was also intelligent enough to know where it was and where is wasn't relevant.
There is zero room, or excuse to "be gay in the flight deck"
It's not approiate nor relevant.
Now if you want to be "crew in the flight deck" that's great, and your sexual life has zero place at work regardless of where you put what with whoever.
Do your job and keep it professional and you won't have any problems.
Frankly why would you even bring up your sexuality at work???
I'm straight, I don't go around telling everyone to accept me for being straight, I don't talk about straight sex, I don't have bumper stickers about straight pride, it's no one business but mine and my partners. I completely fail to see why people decide to be defined by their sex, color, or sexual preference.
Good friend of mine was in the military as a officer for quite some time, later a successful CEO, no one under his command, or in the company later really knew he was gay, because it wasn't any of their damn business and did not have any relevance on how he commanded his soldiers, or ran the company, he was fine of his sexual orientation, but he was also intelligent enough to know where it was and where is wasn't relevant.
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Thank you so much for this, I will look into it! Cheers.
North Shore wrote:There's a facebook page that a friend of mine runs: Canadian Aviation Pride, and also their website: canadianaviationpride.org.
As far as I'm concerned, anybody who makes any type of a deal about it is an idiot.
Good luck!
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Thank you for everyone who replied. It's reassuring to hear mostly positive comments / experiences.
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
So he has to invent an imaginary wife? Or lie and say he doesn't have a boyfriend/husband?SuperchargedRS wrote: Frankly why would you even bring up your sexuality at work???
Where you are from, if you have a family, what your partner is doing for work etc are very basic questions that pop up quite quickly the first few times you are flying with other pilots.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Where do you get this garbage from?digits_ wrote:So he has to invent an imaginary wife? Or lie and say he doesn't have a boyfriend/husband?SuperchargedRS wrote: Frankly why would you even bring up your sexuality at work???
Where you are from, if you have a family, what your partner is doing for work etc are very basic questions that pop up quite quickly the first few times you are flying with other pilots.
Where did I say any of that?
I don't have a wife, do I need to lie and make one up?
Are you saying gay folks done have a family??
Are you saying gay folks don't have partners who work?
You seem to be looking for problems where none exist bud
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
You said he shouldn't bring up his sexuality at work. Let's say our gay pilot has a boyfriend. How can he answer any questions/enter any conversations about relationships/partners without bringing up his sexuality?SuperchargedRS wrote:Where do you get this garbage from?digits_ wrote:So he has to invent an imaginary wife? Or lie and say he doesn't have a boyfriend/husband?SuperchargedRS wrote: Frankly why would you even bring up your sexuality at work???
Where you are from, if you have a family, what your partner is doing for work etc are very basic questions that pop up quite quickly the first few times you are flying with other pilots.
Where did I say any of that?
The summary of your previous post seems to be "it doesn't matter that you are gay, as long as you keep it secret". Which I would find very hard to do unless you lie.
I don't think he should keep it a secret. There is a big difference between "advertising it with bumper stickers" and just mentioning it when it comes up in casual conversation.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Almost every flight I've ever been on the topic of family/kids comes up. No one is prodding. Just shooting the sh#t to pass the time. Of course the topic of sexual orientation would come up, indirectly. Unless both pilots just sit there and stare out the window. To the OP. I can't imagine anyone caring if you're gay. If you want to fly, fly.
Edit to add:
Indirectly my means of asking what your wife does etc. It's usually the default question.
Edit to add:
Indirectly my means of asking what your wife does etc. It's usually the default question.
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
No secret.digits_ wrote:You said he shouldn't bring up his sexuality at work. Let's say our gay pilot has a boyfriend. How can he answer any questions/enter any conversations about relationships/partners without bringing up his sexuality?SuperchargedRS wrote:Where do you get this garbage from?digits_ wrote:
So he has to invent an imaginary wife? Or lie and say he doesn't have a boyfriend/husband?
Where you are from, if you have a family, what your partner is doing for work etc are very basic questions that pop up quite quickly the first few times you are flying with other pilots.
Where did I say any of that?
The summary of your previous post seems to be "it doesn't matter that you are gay, as long as you keep it secret". Which I would find very hard to do unless you lie.
I don't think he should keep it a secret. There is a big difference between "advertising it with bumper stickers" and just mentioning it when it comes up in casual conversation.
But when you say "my partner" do you follow that up with "...a female", of course not.
Point is, it ain't a issue unless you make it a issue, many folks let their color or sexuality define them, to me this is almost a mental disorder.
But yeah, if it somehow comes up, "hey Jo, so you're single? My wife has a really hot girlfriend in town" saying "thanks, but I'm gay, do appreciate the offer" it's a complete mute point.
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
10 years ago I was at a dinner with my wife and about 40 other pilots. One of the pilots came to the dinner in full drag... and was very serious about it. Nobody really paid it much attention, it was in fact quite an impressive display of "who cares". This from a bunch of airshow/aerobatic adrenaline junkie macho type pilots was quite unexpected but pleasant to observe.
Now if the guy had come all in favour of automation / side sticks he would have been in big trouble in that crowd for sure... far more sensitive issue ;)
Now if the guy had come all in favour of automation / side sticks he would have been in big trouble in that crowd for sure... far more sensitive issue ;)
Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
888000,
There are companies out there that are very traditional, and some that are more progressive. Go to flight school, do what you love, and if you're good at what you do, you can come work for Porter Airlines!
There are companies out there that are very traditional, and some that are more progressive. Go to flight school, do what you love, and if you're good at what you do, you can come work for Porter Airlines!
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
In the words of John Oliver,
"How is this still a thing?"
Which is not to be dismissive of the original poster's concerns, only to add my voice to those that say it should not be an issue whatsoever.
What most people have less tolerance for is the militants and the zealots, the ones with something to prove or the desire to "educate" everyone else. (Speaking generally, whether the topic is politics, religion, or the consumption of meat.)
Thankfully I'd like to think we're getting to the point - in Canada at least - where one's sexual orientation has lost its ability to so much as raise an eyebrow and people can just live their lives as they choose.
"How is this still a thing?"
Which is not to be dismissive of the original poster's concerns, only to add my voice to those that say it should not be an issue whatsoever.
What most people have less tolerance for is the militants and the zealots, the ones with something to prove or the desire to "educate" everyone else. (Speaking generally, whether the topic is politics, religion, or the consumption of meat.)
Thankfully I'd like to think we're getting to the point - in Canada at least - where one's sexual orientation has lost its ability to so much as raise an eyebrow and people can just live their lives as they choose.
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
Airlines like realiable, fit, trustworthy, smart, automous, honest, sensible, well balanced and competant people. You fit in that mold, you will fit in a cockpit.
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Re: Being gay in the flight deck...
I couldn't care less what orientation somebody has... some of the nicest, friendliest and most competent people I know in aviation are gay. Being professional in the flightdeck and out of the flightdeck is important. There is no reason to flaunt or sell your orientation to colleagues. I do not discuss my wife or family nor my own orientation at work unless I am asked. I hang out with my crews all the time and some of the best times I've ever had was hanging with the openly gay flightdeck/cabin! Great people. There are however several oldfashioned Captains at the company where I am employed and they are not supportive of the gay community.
A few months ago I witnessed a scene at the Geneva Airport departure lounge that has forever changed me. Two openly gay men embraced each other before one departed to his gate. What I saw was two human beings displaying an unconditional love for one another - something I have never seen before, not even in the hetero world. Everybody who saw this embrace, men and women stopped and looked. It touched all of us - and for the first time in my adult life I saw the esscence of human love displayed between two people who love each other. It is not everyday you see something so powerful or pure as what I witnessed that morning in Geneva. I told my wife about that later when I came home and I shared this story with two First Officers who are gay and who happen to be close friends. My wife and I wondered if gay people actually experience a level of intimacy and love that hetero couples rarely reach? I mean, there is not much intimacy left in our hedonistic and narcistic lives is there? Anyways, aviation tends in general to be gay friendly so don't have any hesitations to pursue a flightdeck career - but as others have mentioned earlier know your company, corporate culture and surroundings before opening up - there is still unfortunately a lot of bigotry and ignorance in the world.
All the best!
A few months ago I witnessed a scene at the Geneva Airport departure lounge that has forever changed me. Two openly gay men embraced each other before one departed to his gate. What I saw was two human beings displaying an unconditional love for one another - something I have never seen before, not even in the hetero world. Everybody who saw this embrace, men and women stopped and looked. It touched all of us - and for the first time in my adult life I saw the esscence of human love displayed between two people who love each other. It is not everyday you see something so powerful or pure as what I witnessed that morning in Geneva. I told my wife about that later when I came home and I shared this story with two First Officers who are gay and who happen to be close friends. My wife and I wondered if gay people actually experience a level of intimacy and love that hetero couples rarely reach? I mean, there is not much intimacy left in our hedonistic and narcistic lives is there? Anyways, aviation tends in general to be gay friendly so don't have any hesitations to pursue a flightdeck career - but as others have mentioned earlier know your company, corporate culture and surroundings before opening up - there is still unfortunately a lot of bigotry and ignorance in the world.
All the best!