Citation down North of Kelowna

[mbav8r]

Just saw an aerial view of the crash site, it appears to have gone in vertical, no trail of debris, just the impact area. I hope there is a CVR and FDR for a hopefully quick report!

[cncpc]

Just saw an aerial view of the crash site, it appears to have gone in vertical, no trail of debris, just the impact area. I hope there is a CVR and FDR for a hopefully quick report!

Doesn't look like much left.

Anybody comment on that last readout 120 knots and -2200 fpm at 4800 feet.

[upup_away]

There has been some nasty weather over Western Canada lately.

A) No it hasn't. Not in CYLW lately.

B) Theres no wx that would cause you to go -2000fpm on a 500. Even on 1 engine.

Was there not a typhoon hitting western BC that day? Looking at the weather didn't seem very nice. Where did you get the-2000fm stat?

[Siddley Hawker]

Where did you get the-2000fm stat?

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20161013-0

[co-joe]

Where did you get the-2000fm stat?

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20161013-0

Can't imagine a structural failure causing a light descent rate like that although Flightracker isn't always super accurate, physiological issue, TR deploy, SVR TURBC maybe. The picture on CBC looked like the V stab and one H stab survived, not much else.

CBC said pilot and 3 pax. Not sure if that's accurate, don't know of many single pilot jet ops in Canada. Condolences.

['97 Tercel]

There are definitely a number of jets being flown single-pilot in Canada.

[Oscar]

News is reporting the identity of the single pilot, JK. Also the third passenger. Very sad day for everyone.

[oldncold]

Correct re solo pic jet the good thing is these days, Flt safety n Simcom won't issue spic jet to those ( good for all concerned,public and industry alike).that cut their training program. Which brings me to the dark side. As part of any normal investigation of hi profile individuals. One must ask the following? 1) who would gain the most in J.P. Death (due to the political influence and principles he held fast to) and 2 was the aircraft tampered with. Failure to ask these? And eliminate them will always leave the conspiring theorists. To? The out come of the tsb final report. Once again my condolences to the family

[cncpc]

There has been some nasty weather over Western Canada lately.

A) No it hasn't. Not in CYLW lately.

B) Theres no wx that would cause you to go -2000fpm on a 500. Even on 1 engine.

Was there not a typhoon hitting western BC that day? Looking at the weather didn't seem very nice. Where did you get the-2000fm stat?

It in Flight Aware, their last reliable hit, I think.

I thought 120 knots and -2200 fpm gives a strange setup, no? That has to be pretty much power off, doesn't it?

CB?

The RCMP officer said in one of the stories that there were very heavy rains at the time.

Not sure if I have the crash site accurate, but it does seem that from the 7000 foot altitude to the last hit at 4800, he was able to maintain course, or at least roughly.

[cncpc]

Correct re solo pic jet the good thing is these days, Flt safety n Simcom won't issue spic jet to those ( good for all concerned,public and industry alike).that cut their training program. Which brings me to the dark side. As part of any normal investigation of hi profile individuals. One must ask the following? 1) who would gain the most in J.P. Death (due to the political influence and principles he held fast to) and 2 was the aircraft tampered with. Failure to ask these? And eliminate them will always leave the conspiring theorists. To? The out come of the tsb final report. Once again my condolences to the family

From the looks of it, I think this is going to be a difficult investigation. They won't be able to determine if medical factors were involved, everything looks to be in bits.

[cncpc]

Correct re solo pic jet the good thing is these days, Flt safety n Simcom won't issue spic jet to those ( good for all concerned,public and industry alike).that cut their training program. Which brings me to the dark side. As part of any normal investigation of hi profile individuals. One must ask the following? 1) who would gain the most in J.P. Death (due to the political influence and principles he held fast to) and 2 was the aircraft tampered with. Failure to ask these? And eliminate them will always leave the conspiring theorists. To? The out come of the tsb final report. Once again my condolences to the family

With respect, I don't think the political and sabotage investigations are really necessary. Jim Prentice was a moderate conservative who was greatly admired across the political spectrum.

[7dirty7]

Can someone pm me the name of the pilot? Oscar posted jk I hope it's not who I think it is

[pdw]

1st hit is 2min after takeOff doing 160kts at 4000', then 3000' per minute climb to 7000' at 150kt /3min mark. Next/last hit is down to 4800ft at 120kts, 4min after takeoff (the 3 radar hits info on flightaware, plus the take-off time given as 9:32 local).

Average flightaware speed is 130-140kts over the 4 min, which works out to about 8-9 nautical miles flown in that time, yet the distance between the airport to the accident site is 6 nautical miles and approx 1nm mile up. Winds near calm at surface at ylw 9pm local, so ASN "rwy16" info looks possible.

[Bede]

Autopilot fail & subsequent loss of control? SP-IFR, private ops, near vertical impact. Just speculating.

[RatherBeFlying]

Attitude instrument failure not caught in time could do it.

One of the early Citation crashes happened because the pilot had jumped in and got in the air before the gyros had spooled up.

[AuxBatOn]

1st hit is 2min after takeOff doing 160kts at 4000', then 3000' per minute climb to 7000' at 150kt /3min mark. Next/last hit is down to 4800ft at 120kts, 4min after takeoff (the 3 radar hits info on flightaware, plus the take-off time given as 9:32 local).

Average flightaware speed is 130-140kts over the 4 min, which works out to about 8-9 nautical miles flown in that time, yet the distance between the airport to the accident site is 6 nautical miles and approx 1nm mile up. Winds near calm at surface at ylw 9pm local, so ASN "rwy16" info looks possible.

I am pretty sure aircraft turn. Velocity has both a magnitude and a direction: if the aircraft is not going directly away from the airport, even though it may have travelled 8 miles, it will not be 8 miles from the airport...

[bigsky]

Attitude instrument failure not caught in time could do it.

One of the early Citation crashes happened because the pilot had jumped in and got in the air before the gyros had spooled up.

That would be pretty damn fast! Doesnt anyone do instrument checks while taxing anymore?

[North Shore]

Never met the pilot, but from this account, he doesn't sound like a 'hurry up' type of guy. http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=111114

[cncpc]

Never met the pilot, but from this account, he doesn't sound like a 'hurry up' type of guy. http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=111114

Was he a pilot in the RCMP?

[MrWings]

On the CBC radio this morning they said investigators said from early indications it looks like an in-flight breakup vs flying into the mountain.

Wouldn't that mean there were pieces found away from the main crash site?

Or maybe it is just an inaccurate reporting of what was discussed. Maybe they told the reporter an in-flight incident vs CFIT.

[Oscar]

Link to identities

http://globalnews.ca/news/3005313/fourt ... dentified/

[Old fella]

Condolences to those affected as a result of this sad/tragic accident. Regardless of the final outcome from the TSB it is my considered opinion S/P ops in a turbojet aircraft should never be permitted under any circumstances.

[AuxBatOn]

Condolences to those affected as a result of this sad/tragic accident. Regardless of the final outcome from the TSB it is my considered opinion S/P ops in a turbojet aircraft should never be permitted under any circumstances.

I am assuming you mean commercial ops. Plenty of safe single pilot turbo jet aircraft out there. Just need to right pilots to fly them.

[Gramps]

I feel the need to respond to the speculators on this specific forum.

1. A quick examination of the aircraft track on FlightAware reveals updates in the order of one per minute. My guess is that the ATC tapes that the TSB will be examining with respect to this flight will likely be updated more frequently than once per minute. Lots can happen over the course of one minute. Lets hope for clarity, JK was a good friend.

2. Some here feel that single pilot jet ops should never happen. Do these na-sayers feel the same regarding PC-12 pilots? What about the guys flying Mustang's and Embraer's? And bag runners in Navajo's, Seneca's? I have done the S/P thing on and off for over 40 years, I will take the performance and avionics of the modern turbojet that I currently fly any day of the week. Here is a good read on just this topic, from early last year: Imagine one pilot up front in your A380. Could happen if the NASA/Rockwell study proves to have merit.

http://aviationweek.com/technology/nasa ... s-concepts

IMO two or more pilots do not necessarily make a flight "safer" or alleviate the risks. Examples are Asiana 214, three pilots land short at SFO in perfect VFR. Eastern Airlines 401, three pilots in the front of an L1011 dealing with a landing gear issue. Nobody flying the plane, slow descent into the Florida Everglades. Saw Ted Chernecki last night on Global, wondering why there was no co-pilot on this flight. "It was a night flight, in rain, without a co-pilot". Can any of the critics out there tell me the one time that S/P Op's actually do require a SIC? This specific requirement most assuredly was not a consideration on this flight.

Maybe we can wait for something definitive from the TSB, instead of conjecture on this forum.

Fly safe everyone, fly safe.

G

[sportingrifle]

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with Gramps. I have spent many years flying single pilot IFR and even more working in a 2 crew airplane. This accident could have been caused by a myriad of things from structural failure, to pilot incapacitation, to something as simple as forgetting to turn the pitot heat on. Hopefully the TSB will be able to figure it out, although I think it will be a tough investigation. A few thoughts in no particular order:

While not single pilot related, the pilot probably had had one brutal long duty day. If Flight Aware is correct, the airplane departed at 0724 PST in the morning. Factoring in pre-flight duties, start up and taxi, drive to the airport, and stopping at Timmies, if the pilot didn't spend a day in a hotel, he may have been up for 16 hours. (And if he did, he was still trying to get rest off his circadian rhythm - the shift worker syndrome, tough to do) If he was up all day, it would have been very easy to make a critical error. In fact it would have been a challenge not to, especially if something happened out of the ordinary. And this is where the 2 crew part becomes important.

Modern airplanes are really easy to fly, and don't need 2 pilots to just manipulate the controls. Running a complex checklist perhaps, but thanks to modern certification requirements, they are pretty easy and forgiving to fly. Even the big jets. The value of the 2nd crew member lies in the cross checking and error trapping. Forget to turn the pitot heat on or mis-set a cleared altitude and hopefully the other pilot will catch it. (Yes, there are examples of entire airline crews who didn't but on balance, if airliners only had one pilot, the accident record would be many many times worse.) And when things go sideways, another brain may recognize a problem before you do, or provide a better solution to it.

And the pilotless airplane thanks to automation. Not in my lifetime. The problem with automation is that it relies on a set of assumptions that are made by a software engineer in a far away place, and many years ago. When reality differs from the assumptions inherent in the software, things go off the rails fast. I flew an Airbus for about 15 years and about every month I had to intervene and save it from doing something really bad to itself. The problem wasn't the 'Bus, (and the B787 is the same lest I seem like I am picking on Airbus), it always did what it was supposed to. The problem was always a situation the automation designers hadn't foreseen years earlier. Evidence of this is the loss rate for advanced military drones...something in the range of 5-10% per year! And they don't work out of busy airports.

The best safety enhancement in an airplane is a well trained, experienced and supported pilot. The only thing better is 2 of them. Sincere condolences by all affected by this sad accident. And when the answers are found, hopefully we will all be a little bit more knowledgeable.

sportingrifle