Citation down North of Kelowna

[Say Altitude]

Can some one clarify for me if the pilot was a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot, or an RCMP Officer who also happened to fly? The reports make it seem like he was a pilot on the side (not air services) and that he took on "commercial" flying after he retired - but it's not clear. Looking for clarification.

[CpnCrunch]

Can some one clarify for me if the pilot was a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot, or an RCMP Officer who also happened to fly? The reports make it seem like he was a pilot on the side (not air services) and that he took on "commercial" flying after he retired - but it's not clear. Looking for clarification.

More info here:

"A statement released on behalf of the family of Jim Kruk on Saturday said the 62-year-old resident of Airdrie had been a pilot since 1976, and pursued aviation further in 2007 after a full career with the Mounties."

It looks like he was employed by a group of owners of the Citation (Norjet Inc) as their pilot.

[QFE]

IF: There was an engine failure.

There is an "Engine Out Complex Special" departure.

I can't imagine a single pilot operation going thru these
9 steps during an emergency operation.
IMHO

[RatherBeFlying]

There's been a lot of talk about adding power to get out of a stall – most of which applies only to propeller aircraft and does not apply to jets.

[crazyaviator]

There's been a lot of talk about adding power to get out of a stall – most of which applies only to propeller aircraft and does not apply to jets.

AGREED ! However, if one wants to survive and not continue into the trees, one needs to add power at some point in the exercise

[pdw]

If you the pilot catch it early at stallspeed and in that second are not yet sure if completely stalled, you must initiate adding missing power while initiating the nose down for power. But at that point why send it into the steep dive when knowing you probably already have ice on it but when not yet necessarily completely stalled ?

There's been a lot of talk about adding power to get out of a stall – most of which applies only to propeller aircraft and does not apply to jets.

Q here eventually is though, once completely stalled ... can they exit from deep stall with ice any different than the prop

Sure, if it's about staying out of complete stall upon noticing ... ie stick shaker ... that would be my guess is the description that would be unique to a jet even with any (unspecified) amount of ice

[Mooney21]

Can some one clarify for me if the pilot was a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot, or an RCMP Officer who also happened to fly? The reports make it seem like he was a pilot on the side (not air services) and that he took on "commercial" flying after he retired - but it's not clear. Looking for clarification.

He was not a retired RCMP Air Services Pilot.

M

[AuxBatOn]

Here's the kicker if you add power at high AOA:

For propeller aircraft: You will develop a yaw rate by applying power. If it goes uncorrected, you may depart the aircraft.

For jet aircraft: Depending on where the engines are, applying power at high AOA may induce a pitch up moment further aggravate the stall.

It is critical to reduce the AOA before you apply power. By unloading, I do not mean sticking the nose forward. I mean easing the back pressure as to reduce the AOA below the critical AOA. As the AOA decrease, a smooth application of power while maintaining just below stall AOA will minimize your altitude loss.

[MUSKEG]

In the case of a C-500 adding power approaching the stall will actually push the nose down due no engines being high and aft.
I find it hard to believe that debilitating ice could form in 4 min when much of that time was flown in above freezing temps. It was +4 on the ground and the aircraft wouldn't have encountered ice until 4-5 thousand AGL. At 8 thousand aircraft would have been in ice for less than 2 min. I guess stranger things have happened. Lack of communication of any sort points me in another direction.

[cncpc]

In the case of a C-500 adding power approaching the stall will actually push the nose down due no engines being high and aft.
I find it hard to believe that debilitating ice could form in 4 min when much of that time was flown in above freezing temps. It was +4 on the ground and the aircraft wouldn't have encountered ice until 4-5 thousand AGL. At 8 thousand aircraft would have been in ice for less than 2 min. I guess stranger things have happened. Lack of communication of any sort points me in another direction.

The aircraft didn't reach 8000. 7200 and the problems started. The 120 knot speed from FlightAware was not accurate. It was higher than that. The -2200 fpm was accurate.

[ChrisEvans]

Just for information;

N102PT Single Pilot CJ crash in 2008 - 2 fatal - owner and her son - 6 minutes after departure

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviat ... 0172&key=1

[co-joe]

Just for information;

N102PT Single Pilot CJ crash in 2008 - 2 fatal - owner and her son - 6 minutes after departure

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviat ... 0172&key=1

I wouldn't have believed that could bring a plane down, especially with 2 other AI's in the cockpit but then I watched a guy do it in his first time in sim and despite my best efforts I couldn't get him to give me control and the instructor had to freeze the sim. That's with 2 pilots and SOP's. You can talk about AI failures all you want but they are so hard to identify at first if you are not following a proper scan or if something else distracts you. Once they build it's pretty easy to see something's wrong but by then it can be too late.

[pdw]

7200 and the problems started. The 120 knot speed from FlightAware was not accurate. It was higher than that. The -2200 fpm was accurate.

Didn't see "7200" "Flightaware" data. It seemed the "-2200 fpm" was simply difference between the two last hits: the "7000" minus "4800". In that last minute though, it appears possible the AC finishes very the steep 3000'/min climb and then descent a few seconds into it (if the first ~20 secs in that last minute of data is steep climb) ... yet the last 40sec or so is a very steepening descent then ? Not impossible there to have a total altitude change between hits of 4K, including both the up&down. Just my thoughts from the data at hand, ... the evidence for "higher" speed. (One early news article quoted a source for "8000" and another suggested 'down from 4000 in 20 sec')

[cncpc]

7200 and the problems started. The 120 knot speed from FlightAware was not accurate. It was higher than that. The -2200 fpm was accurate.

Didn't see "7200" "Flightaware" data. It seemed the "-2200 fpm" was simply difference between the two last hits: the "7000" minus "4800". In that last minute though, it appears possible the AC finishes very the steep 3000'/min climb and then descent a few seconds into it (if the first ~20 secs in that last minute of data is steep climb) ... yet the last 40sec or so is a very steepening descent then ? Not impossible there to have a total altitude change between hits of 4K, including both the up&down. Just my thoughts from the data at hand, ... the evidence for "higher" speed. (One early news article quoted a source for "8000" and another suggested 'down from 4000 in 20 sec')

Some useful information came from ATC radar data.

[RatherBeFlying]

I wouldn't have believed that could bring a plane down, especially with 2 other AI's in the cockpit but then I watched a guy do it in his first time in sim and despite my best efforts I couldn't get him to give me control and the instructor had to freeze the sim. That's with 2 pilots and SOP's. You can talk about AI failures all you want but they are so hard to identify at first if you are not following a proper scan or if something else distracts you. Once they build it's pretty easy to see something's wrong but by then it can be too late.

In my case the left seat turned us inverted at 16,000' and sat there frozen while I was shouting in his ear that he was upside down and had to roll right side up until we hit the "ground".

In a real airplane you may have to grab the controls and possibly whack your buddy in the head. Given the small likelihood of recovering from a bank past 90°, a bank going past 45° is time for drastic measures.

[ChrisEvans]

Incidentally, the investigation by NTSB on N102PT took just over three years to complete, longest I've seen in recent history.

[cncpc]

It's not clear that there ever was an AI failure.

The fact that the airplane was operating at night in instrument meteorological conditions and the departure was an accelerating climbing turn, along with the pilot's demonstrated complacency, created an environment conducive to spatial disorientation. Given the altitude and speed of the airplane, the pilot would have only had seconds to identify, overcome, and respond to the effects of spatial disorientation.

[pdw]

The Maine accident climbed on track for 38 sec and then radioed the failure ... and shortly after radioed again not knowing where to turn. So it gave the impression it's understood there was a failure of the information in very rapid forward speed in clear ice, and plane was outside in FZRA. What else can an investigation conclude about it if no proof left of a pitot system obstruction. How does the investigation differentiate from "spacial disorientation" with attitude indictor O.k. ... or disoriented from failure only ?

[cncpc]

The Maine accident climbed on track for 38 sec and then radioed the failure ... and shortly after radioed again not knowing where to turn. So it gave the impression it's understood there was a failure of the information in very rapid forward speed in clear ice, and plane was outside in FZRA. What else can an investigation conclude about it if no proof left of a pitot system obstruction. How does the investigation differentiate from "spacial disorientation" with attitude indictor O.k. ... or disoriented from failure only ?

Because there were two other attitude indicators.

[pdw]

In total blockage?

By "failure" (in Maine report) the pilot's radio message also can imply 'not useable' (all of them), so pitot blockage may or may not be realized at that point .. if in fact was still possible. The comparison looks right; in Kelowna also in climb although still in process of the light right turning in the direction of an enroute heading.