Canadian Piper PA-28 down in Pennsylvania

[Hockaloogie]

Words of wisdom from the bottom of every one of Cat Driver's postings -

Cat Driver? Bah, what does he know? Should have banned him, like Hedley. Those guys don't know anything.

[Rookie50]

What is the endurance of a PA 28 at normal operational speeds? Could this factor have affected their ability to deviate? I read this aircaft model only has 50 gallons, burns 9 GPH in cruise, and the forward plane flew 4.5 hours. That math at night, isn't too comfortable, looks like 5.5 hours.

Subtract 15 minutes for start / climb, means 4:45 used without any approach factored in at CYSN. Legal, VFR. Barely.

Which aside from anything else, makes this, under canadian regs, a Cars violation too for IFR.

My personal rule at night FWIW was to be on the ground with 90 minutes of fuel remaining, 60 minutes during perfect day VMC and only in southern Ontario. More remote areas, more.

As PF said, who was supervising --

[rightwinglow]

Everything PhotoFly wrote was perfect. This whole situation screams wrong. Did anyone else bother to read the reddit link from the first page? "Apparently" the kid in the back sent a text to his girlfriend prior to the accident saying they were stuck in freezing rain... Who knows if its true or not. I couldn't keep reading cause most the posts on reddit are even worse dribble than Avcanada.

[URC]

"Apparently" the kid in the back sent a text to his girlfriend prior to the accident saying they were stuck in freezing rain... Who knows if its true or not.

Freezing rain seems unlikely given the surface temperature at the time was +16C (reported at BFD, 24nm NW of the crash site) and the forecast freezing level was around 12000. Might have encountered light hail from the thunderstorm cell in the vicinity ?

Looks like there was also a 3rd PA-28 that took off about 30 minutes before them, but this one diverted to MTN. (edit - the diversion to MTN was due "engine problems", not weather).

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGYG ... /KRIC/CYSN

[DHC2eater]

Call it speculating or whatever you like....

This is yet another case of inexperienced individuals....same as the Beaver in BC....being in a situation they never should have been in.....who was mentoring these guys??

Single engine IFR at night in heavy weather near the Great Lakes which,as an aside,can and does create its own weather, as well as whats already out there ,is ludicrous !

Light aircraft that are IFR equipped are to get you out of trouble....not into it!!

What's a PA28 got for de icing equipment???? Pitot heat ???? Carb heat????.....by the way I'd like to suggest that those conditions could be ideal for carb ice!!!

Eater

[CpnCrunch]

What is the endurance of a PA 28 at normal operational speeds? Could this factor have affected their ability to deviate? I read this aircaft model only has 50 gallons, burns 9 GPH in cruise, and the forward plane flew 4.5 hours. That math at night, isn't too comfortable, looks like 5.5 hours.

Subtract 15 minutes for start / climb, means 4:45 used without any approach factored in at CYSN. Legal, VFR. Barely.

Which aside from anything else, makes this, under canadian regs, a Cars violation too for IFR.

My personal rule at night FWIW was to be on the ground with 90 minutes of fuel remaining, 60 minutes during perfect day VMC and only in southern Ontario. More remote areas, more.

As PF said, who was supervising --

48 gallons, 160hp. About 8.5gph plus climb/taxi, or about 10gph ballpark total from start to finish. Looks fine VFR, but I would be interested in seeing how they had legal IFR fuel (4hr + 45 mins + divert to alternate + 2 approaches = ???)

[Aviatard]

48 gallons, 160hp. About 8.5gph plus climb/taxi, or about 10gph ballpark total from start to finish. Looks fine VFR, but I would be interested in seeing how they had legal IFR fuel (4hr + 45 mins + divert to alternate + 2 approaches = ???)

I must have missed the part where the flight was filed IFR. I've looked and can't find it. Lost contact with ATC, yes, but they'd be in contact for the border crossing anyway. So were they IFR, or VFR?

[Rookie50]

48 gallons, 160hp. About 8.5gph plus climb/taxi, or about 10gph ballpark total from start to finish. Looks fine VFR, but I would be interested in seeing how they had legal IFR fuel (4hr + 45 mins + divert to alternate + 2 approaches = ???)

I must have missed the part where the flight was filed IFR. I've looked and can't find it. Lost contact with ATC, yes, but they'd be in contact for the border crossing anyway. So were they IFR, or VFR?

IFR. easy to see from routing and altitude filed.

As for the fuel, I'm not sure I'd call it (45 min) "fine" even night VFR. Not sure it was even 45 left by the math. Legal? maybe.

Get to CYSN, maybe the lights are U/S, ones radio has issues, then that 45 can go by pretty fast looking for an alternate in the dark, after a 4.5 hour challenging flight. Fun stuff.

This accident, and even the actions of the lead aircraft progressing through similar weather with apparently minimal reserve fuel, quite troubles me. IMO, multiple safe flight practices were not followed to an appropriate standard -- my comment of course is based on information available.

This simply should never happen with flight instructors in particular. They as a group should model the standard for conservative and safe choices, led by the CFI of the school. I am fortunate I was trained by instructors that felt strongly the same way.

BTW I'd like to hear PDW's thoughts here. Imagine he is likely familiar with this school.

Yeah, it upsets me when young lives are lost. I must be getting older......

[Saxub]

WTF are two student pilots and a trainee instructor doing on a "sort of field trip"?

My flight school did trips to the USA regularly with the same system, one instructor and two students. One would sit in the back and the o ther fly there, then switch and the other would fly back. This allowed the students to get some USA flying experince without having to cover the cost of the whole trip there and back. I'm sure it's similar across the country. I've heard of similar trips at schools in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario.

[rightwinglow]

WTF are two student pilots and a trainee instructor doing on a "sort of field trip"?

My flight school did trips to the USA regularly with the same system, one instructor and two students. One would sit in the back and the o ther fly there, then switch and the other would fly back. This allowed the students to get some USA flying experince without having to cover the cost of the whole trip there and back. I'm sure it's similar across the country. I've heard of similar trips at schools in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario.

I think the flight home filed IFR, into night, into weather with a low time instructor and two pre PPL students onboard.. I didn't have that exercise number in my PTR? OR did the flying club "NEED" the airplane back for the next day and now the two students are just the instructors first passengers on what likely could have been his first real IMC experience?

[Saxub]

No, that I agree with and would not have happened at my school.

I was just replying to the question regarding the trip in general.

I was caught once overnight somewhere unexpectedly and called dispatch. They said don't worry about it just to try to leave early in the morning. I did, and they only had to cancel one AM flight until I was back.

[JasonE]

In regards to fuel - my PA28 with 160 hp burns 7.1-7.5 GPH. I flight plan for 8 to be safe.

[CpnCrunch]

In regards to fuel - my PA28 with 160 hp burns 7.1-7.5 GPH. I flight plan for 8 to be safe.

It depends on the power setting, but at 75% power it uses 8.5gph.

[CpnCrunch]

As for the fuel, I'm not sure I'd call it (45 min) "fine" even night VFR. Not sure it was even 45 left by the math. Legal? maybe.

The flight plan was 4 hours, so I was assuming a 1 hour reserve, but I agree it would be better to have more fuel for a long flight like that, even if the weather was good.

[Rookie50]

As for the fuel, I'm not sure I'd call it (45 min) "fine" even night VFR. Not sure it was even 45 left by the math. Legal? maybe.

The flight plan was 4 hours, so I was assuming a 1 hour reserve, but I agree it would be better to have more fuel for a long flight like that, even if the weather was good.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGNO ... /KRIC/CYSN


Lead flight on flight aware link, posted earlier, shows landed CYSN after a 4.5 hour flight. Depends I suppose on the actual fuel burn. I was assuming 9 GPH, per the PA 28 info link I read. Less would improve the margins. Still looks slim.

[photofly]

WTF are two student pilots and a trainee instructor doing on a "sort of field trip"?

My flight school did trips to the USA regularly with the same system, one instructor and two students. One would sit in the back and the o ther fly there, then switch and the other would fly back. This allowed the students to get some USA flying experince without having to cover the cost of the whole trip there and back. I'm sure it's similar across the country. I've heard of similar trips at schools in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario

There is no exercise in the PPL syllabus for "USA flying experience". What exercises were being taught, and how was the flight logged? Opportunities for long trips abound in the CPL syllabus, or any time after a PPL has been earned, but this does not belong in primary flight training.

I recently met a student pilot who was proud of his 14 hours flight time. Unfortunately 10 of those hours were, he told me with a completely straight face, dual cross country with an instructor (10!) and he was still unable to climb, descend or level off an airplane.

Flight schools and instructors who pad their logbooks and bank accounts this way should be ashamed. Students who are complicit in their own defraudment should take a good hard look in the mirror.

When students and trainee instructors come back in coffins, well, I don't know what to say.

[Rookie50]

PF,

Completely agree. Brutal.


And I hope Enforcement gets involved in examining this practice, generally.

[Saxub]

WTF are two student pilots and a trainee instructor doing on a "sort of field trip"?

My flight school did trips to the USA regularly with the same system, one instructor and two students. One would sit in the back and the o ther fly there, then switch and the other would fly back. This allowed the students to get some USA flying experince without having to cover the cost of the whole trip there and back. I'm sure it's similar across the country. I've heard of similar trips at schools in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario

There is no exercise in the PPL syllabus for "USA flying experience". What exercises were being taught, and how was the flight logged? Opportunities for long trips abound in the CPL syllabus, or any time after a PPL has been earned, but this does not belong in primary flight training.

I recently met a student pilot who was proud of his 14 hours flight time. Unfortunately 10 of those hours were, he told me with a completely straight face, dual cross country with an instructor (10!) and he was still unable to climb, descend or level off an airplane.

Flight schools and instructors who pad their logbooks and bank accounts this way should be ashamed. Students who are complicit in their own defraudment should take a good hard look in the mirror.

When students and trainee instructors come back in coffins, well, I don't know what to say.

It was part of a University program. Not PPL. Advanced CPL nearing the end of training. What was being taught? Flying in US airspace, crossing the border properly and legally and just overall enjoyment of going on an extended trip that you had to flight plan for. There are many things you can learn from such a trip that will help you above and beyond doing time speed distance checks to the practice area and back. I wouldn't suggest a low time PPL go on a trip like this though but I still see a benefit. I never had the chance but I would have loved to go on a 1-2 day flight into the USA. See how things work down there compared to Canada.

[photofly]

It was part of a University program. Not PPL. Advanced CPL nearing the end of training

Then what you did is not comparable to what the three dead were up to, and doesn't stand as any kind of positive counterexample. In the context of this thread it's an entirely irrelevant anecdote.

[Saxub]

I thought I read the thread and report fairly well. I missed the part where it said they were PPL through all the discussion about fuel burn and weather radar. My mistake.

[Rookie50]

It was part of a University program. Not PPL. Advanced CPL nearing the end of training

Then what you did is not comparable to what the three dead were up to, and doesn't stand as any kind of positive counterexample. In the context of this thread it's an entirely irrelevant anecdote.

...And still entirely unnecessary. I can't imagine the need for an instructor to complete any cross country, or even cross continent, flight as a CPL student, except to invest in some ground briefing for complex flight planning. One learns far better, preparing, reading --- then going.

I wonder about too much dependence being taught --

Edit. I did do a couple of challenging, intermediate length trips (IFR) right seating another (experienced) pilot, Pre - IFR / CPL, but my really long stuff was on my own. So mentorship of some sort, can be valuable, I'd agree, in balance ---

[photofly]

I can see the value for an inexperienced pilot of taking someone experienced on a long trip, and if that experienced person is an instructor and is only available in the context of being hired through a flight school, then so be it. You can learn a lot by being brave and heading out on your own, but it's not the only way to do it. But you have to learn to walk on your own before you take running training.

[Saxub]

One learns far better, preparing, reading --- then going.

I wonder about too much dependence being taught --

This was also done. Although after.

Dependence, at least there was discouraged. Can't comment on other institutions. I was very happy with the instruction and felt they prepared students extremely well for the working world.

Anyways, it's off topic since it really doesn't relate to this particular scenario so I'll leave it at that.

[JasonE]

In regards to fuel - my PA28 with 160 hp burns 7.1-7.5 GPH. I flight plan for 8 to be safe.

It depends on the power setting, but at 75% power it uses 8.5gph.

My figures were at 75% in my aircraft.

[CpnCrunch]

In regards to fuel - my PA28 with 160 hp burns 7.1-7.5 GPH. I flight plan for 8 to be safe.

It depends on the power setting, but at 75% power it uses 8.5gph.

My figures were at 75% in my aircraft.

The POH says 8.5. Where do you get 7.5?