172 P or R for PPL

[geneticistx]

Hi All,
im starting my PPL and just curious as to your thoughts of my training in either a 172 R or P. Getting hands on the P on a regular basis is almost impossible at flying club.

Thoughts?
M

[tommywcom]

I personally prefer the R, simply because it's newer (circa 1997'ish with leather seats in the front), and it's fuel injected which makes it simpler to operate. Without fuel injection (I don't know much about the P but I don't think it's fuel injected), you would have to remember to apply carb heat with its knob when you pull power idle to land, etc or your engine can and does quit due to carb ice even in the summer time.

[nbinont]

For PPL training, it shouldn’t matter much, 172 models are reasonably similar. Use the one with you can access the most easily.

[geneticistx]

thanks.

I'll keep all posted how it goes.

[PilotDAR]

Sarcasm alert....

you would have to remember to apply carb heat with its knob when you pull power idle to land, etc or your engine can and does quit due to carb ice even in the summer time.

Yeah, that managing the carb heat knob etc in accordance with the Flight Manual, and the checklist, can be a real challenge, an put you off your landing....

Seriously, unless your ultimate objective is to earn your PPL, and then only ever fly one model of aircraft, I suppose train on that model. Otherwise, you're going to have to learn to manage many differences between many aircraft types as you progress through flying. You may as well not limit your thinking and mental flexibility from the start. Cessna made more than 70,000 planes with carburettors, with one model (182) being labeled the most safe GA plane, and pilots managed carburettors.

There are certain things you just must learn to manage while flying, and if the plane has a carburettor, carb heat will be one of them. If it is alternatively an injected plane, you're going to have to learn to start it properly, and to operate the fuel pump as required. The failure to understand and operate the fuel pump of the 172R will increase your risk about the same as the failure to understand and operate carb heat on the 172P. Which, in the case of any aircraft increases risk as might forgetting to select flaps for a short landing, use nav lights for night flying, or assure your passenger's seat belts and briefing are done.

Learn your first 10-15 hours in whatever trainer is easy to access. Thereafter, be eager to learn in different training types, taking care to understand and manage little differences.

your engine can and does quit due to carb ice

Nah, in 41 years of flying carburetted Cessnas I have never had an engine failure due to accumulated carb ice. I understood and managed carb heat as required, and always kept them running.

[geneticistx]

Sarcasm alert....

you would have to remember to apply carb heat with its knob when you pull power idle to land, etc or your engine can and does quit due to carb ice even in the summer time.

Yeah, that managing the carb heat knob etc in accordance with the Flight Manual, and the checklist, can be a real challenge, an put you off your landing....

Seriously, unless your ultimate objective is to earn your PPL, and then only ever fly one model of aircraft, I suppose train on that model. Otherwise, you're going to have to learn to manage many differences between many aircraft types as you progress through flying. You may as well not limit your thinking and mental flexibility from the start. Cessna made more than 70,000 planes with carburettors, with one model (182) being labeled the most safe GA plane, and pilots managed carburettors.

There are certain things you just must learn to manage while flying, and if the plane has a carburettor, carb heat will be one of them. If it is alternatively an injected plane, you're going to have to learn to start it properly, and to operate the fuel pump as required. The failure to understand and operate the fuel pump of the 172R will increase your risk about the same as the failure to understand and operate carb heat on the 172P. Which, in the case of any aircraft increases risk as might forgetting to select flaps for a short landing, use nav lights for night flying, or assure your passenger's seat belts and briefing are done.

Learn your first 10-15 hours in whatever trainer is easy to access. Thereafter, be eager to learn in different training types, taking care to understand and manage little differences.

your engine can and does quit due to carb ice

Nah, in 41 years of flying carburetted Cessnas I have never had an engine failure due to accumulated carb ice. I understood and managed carb heat as required, and always kept them running.

great answer, and I'll raise some of these points with my instructor.

Gotta tell ya, the biggest problem seems to be able to book time in a plane.

I'm hoping to get my FPL in a relatively quick time frame.

Thanks again.

M

[SuperchargedRS]

Both are not very good trainers, they mask screws up easily and are far too easy to fly.

It's akin to picking a college based the one with he easiest classes to pass.

You'd be well served seeking out a high time instructor and a cub, champ, glider, or the like for your training.

[PilotDAR]

Supercharged makes a valid point, not really an answer to the question asked, but worthy of consideration. This sentiment has two very valid sides:

Yeah, if you can find competent instruction in a Champ, Luscome, Tiger Moth, Grumman Yankee, Or even a Piper Tomahawk, take that instruction. You;ll be a better pilot, more easily able to adapt to other types - particularly with a bunch of tailwheel time. If you can hire the grizzly old grey haired instructor, who's been flying since the Flintstones rode on Pterodactyls, fly with that person.

However, if all you can practically find to fly is a 172 with a fresh class 4 instructor - fly that. You are welcomed in our ranks as a pilot. Learn to fly it well, and recognize that even a PPL is nothing more than a license to learn. We want new pilots to join our pastime and passion, no matter what you fly....

[Big Pistons Forever]

IMO what airplane you learn to fly in is irrelevant. You can graduate as an extremely competent PPL after only learning on a C 172 or be a crap pilot in pretty much every way after only learning on a taildragger.

The only thing that matters is the quality of your instructor.

Instructor qualities, encompass 3 main areas

1) Professional competence: For the Private Pilot License this competence really only needs to be oriented around the foundation flying skills. That is the instructor can effectively demonstrate the basic handling skills to a good high standard. That is go to the correct attitude for every maneuver without a lot of flopping around, trim the aircraft properly, hold the desired airspeed and make smooth corrections, keep the aircraft coordinated, demonstrate a proper tail low, on speed, on cernterline, at the desired touchdown point landing, in other words the important fundamental handling skills on which every advanced maneuver the pilot will ever see are based.

2) Professional attitude: By that I mean he or she will always demonstrate the highest levels of airmanship and personal decision making.

3) Be enthusiastic: Good instructors want their students to succeed and gain satisfaction in watching students grow and develop.

The instructor doesn't have to have lots of flying time to demonstrate the traits above, but they absolutely positively have to want to be a good instructor

[fixedpitch]

Hi All,
im starting my PPL and just curious as to your thoughts of my training in either a 172 R or P. Getting hands on the P on a regular basis is almost impossible at flying club.

Thoughts?
M

The 172 R and S models are nice airplanes.

Performance-wise there's not much difference with the 172P which has a conventional carb system. As PD pointed out carb management isn't a big deal.

I am going to assume the reason why the P is hard to book is because it's cheaper. If you're that cash-strapped consider the C150/152 if you have one at the FTU. Despite what some critics say it's fun and economical trainer. Otherwise book the 172R and look down on the peasants flying the old stuff .

You'd be well served seeking out a high time instructor and a cub, champ, glider, or the like for your training.

Agreed but good luck finding one.

However, if all you can practically find to fly is a 172 with a fresh class 4 instructor - fly that. You are welcomed in our ranks as a pilot. Learn to fly it well, and recognize that even a PPL is nothing more than a license to learn. We want new pilots to join our pastime and passion, no matter what you fly....

+1 Focus on what's available and master that machine...the 172 can do a lot a cool stuff; find an instructor who can show you how can it perform beyond the usual maneuvers (but only after the PPL is done).

The only thing that matters is the quality of your instructor.

++1

[photofly]

Someone needs to review the POH procedures for the C172 Models R and S ...

[lhalliday]

Since both are certified for intentional spins (I just checked my 172R POH), fly whatever you can get.

For me the operative word for the 172R is heavy. They feel much heavier than a 172P, takeoff, climb, in the air, landing. Especially landing. Almost a baby Skylane (yes, I've flown a 182). I've never had any issues starting the engine in one, though they often sound like they're not running on all four cylinders when they first catch.

I learned to fly in Cherokees. To me a 172P feels like an F150 pickup with wings.

...laura

[fixedpitch]

Someone needs to review the POH procedures for the C172 Models R and S ...

oops yes sorry about that...it's been a while. Post corrected.

[Shiny Side Up]

IMO what airplane you learn to fly in is irrelevant. You can graduate as an extremely competent PPL after only learning on a C 172 or be a crap pilot in pretty much every way after only learning on a taildragger.

The only thing that matters is the quality of your instructor.

Instructor qualities, encompass 3 main areas

1) Professional competence: For the Private Pilot License this competence really only needs to be oriented around the foundation flying skills. That is the instructor can effectively demonstrate the basic handling skills to a good high standard. That is go to the correct attitude for every maneuver without a lot of flopping around, trim the aircraft properly, hold the desired airspeed and make smooth corrections, keep the aircraft coordinated, demonstrate a proper tail low, on speed, on cernterline, at the desired touchdown point landing, in other words the important fundamental handling skills on which every advanced maneuver the pilot will ever see are based.

2) Professional attitude: By that I mean he or she will always demonstrate the highest levels of airmanship and personal decision making.

3) Be enthusiastic: Good instructors want their students to succeed and gain satisfaction in watching students grow and develop.

The instructor doesn't have to have lots of flying time to demonstrate the traits above, but they absolutely positively have to want to be a good instructor

I'd also day that those three things are in the order of their priority. You can learn a lot from an instructor who can fly the airplane correctly, if nothing else. I would add a fourth trait these days, and that would be an instructor who takes care of the paper side of the process. While some may deride this, i'm sure its important to most students to get a license at the end. An instructor who is familiar with this minor evil, or at least is willing to research it can save you a lot of money, time and frustration.

[Rookie50]

For me the operative word for the 172R is heavy. They feel much heavier than a 172P, takeoff, climb, in the air, landing.

...laura

Try a 206 one day. Those feel like a pickup truck.

[40echotango]

Well, do you like the small cessna yoke, or the big one?

40ET

[geneticistx]

Supercharged makes a valid point, not really an answer to the question asked, but worthy of consideration. This sentiment has two very valid sides:

Yeah, if you can find competent instruction in a Champ, Luscome, Tiger Moth, Grumman Yankee, Or even a Piper Tomahawk, take that instruction. You;ll be a better pilot, more easily able to adapt to other types - particularly with a bunch of tailwheel time. If you can hire the grizzly old grey haired instructor, who's been flying since the Flintstones rode on Pterodactyls, fly with that person.

However, if all you can practically find to fly is a 172 with a fresh class 4 instructor - fly that. You are welcomed in our ranks as a pilot. Learn to fly it well, and recognize that even a PPL is nothing more than a license to learn. We want new pilots to join our pastime and passion, no matter what you fly....

Funny you should write the above. I've found a young guy whose a class 4 and will be my CFI. My next question was going to be "which would be better, a young/fresh class 4 instructor or a peppered hair class 1 or 2 CFI"?

I was thinking a fresh class 4 would be more meticulous and focused (no offense to the class 1 and 2)

And the R and P are the same price per hour.

Im doing my PPL out of Brampton. First wheels-up lesson is Tuesday.


m

[lhalliday]

Point of terminology: in Canada CFI means "Chief Flight Instructor", the head instructor of a flight school.

...laura

[fixedpitch]

BFC Is a good facility. I used to rent from them. They have a Citabria if you want to do tailwheel.

[geneticistx]

Point of terminology: in Canada CFI means "Chief Flight Instructor", the head instructor of a flight school.

...laura

tx

[lhalliday]

BFC Is a good facility. I used to rent from them. They have a Citabria if you want to do tailwheel.

I had a couple of hours of play time in a Citabria last year and thought it would be an excellent primary trainer. Totally hands-on seat-of-the-pants flying. A 152 with ADHD in the air, slightly psychotic on the ground. No flaps, so you have to plan and control your approaches properly. Great!

...laura

[7ECA]

I had a couple of hours of play time in a Citabria last year and thought it would be an excellent primary trainer. Totally hands-on seat-of-the-pants flying. A 152 with ADHD in the air, slightly psychotic on the ground. No flaps, so you have to plan and control your approaches properly. Great!

...laura

The Citabria is a peach, a nice stable aircraft that is a good trainer, but certainly not a psychotic aircraft on the ground. About the only time taxiing is challenging, is when you've got a strong cross wind.

It is good to see more people flying OMC, when I first started flying her she was still under 1000 hours on the hobbs. Now she's well over that, and it is occasionally difficult to book.

[pelmet]

I flew a 172S three days ago(which is the same frame as the 172R) and I don't remember it feeling much different than from the P model although it has been 18 months since I flew a 172P.

As for choosing a 172R or a 172P to train on......the P will have three fuel drains while the R has 13 fuel drains.

[SuperchargedRS]

BFC Is a good facility. I used to rent from them. They have a Citabria if you want to do tailwheel.

I had a couple of hours of play time in a Citabria last year and thought it would be an excellent primary trainer. Totally hands-on seat-of-the-pants flying. A 152 with ADHD in the air, slightly psychotic on the ground. No flaps, so you have to plan and control your approaches properly. Great!

...laura

Yup, great aircraft to learn in, plane is rather docile on the ground in my experience, and a great way to instill the excellent tool of slips into your students belt, always thought a slip is one of the manuevers you better know well, side to forward, it will one day, given enough flight hours, save your butt.

Plus you can add a little basic aerobatics into your PPL in the Citabria.

[fixedpitch]

Yup, great aircraft to learn in, plane is rather docile on the ground in my experience, and a great way to instill the excellent tool of slips into your students belt, always thought a slip is one of the manuevers you better know well, side to forward, it will one day, given enough flight hours, save your butt.

Plus you can add a little basic aerobatics into your PPL in the Citabria.

Plus the narrow runways at BFC provide an additional tailwheel thrill.