Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

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nottellin
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Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

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Ypilot
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Ypilot »

Canada Jetlines, in its application for the foreign ownership exemption, had indicated that, if its business plan unfolds as it hopes, it will likely purchase Bombardier’s C Series jets.
So, is Jetlines buying the Cseries?
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Old Dog Flying
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Old Dog Flying »

The off shore money will more than likely be coming from the Left side of the Pacific. They've bought most of our FTUs so why not the airlines as well. Then fill the front seats with 4 bar 200 hour wonders who are real good with computers but no flying skills.
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sanjet
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by sanjet »

Old Dog Flying wrote:The off shore money will more than likely be coming from the Left side of the Pacific. They've bought most of our FTUs so why not the airlines as well. Then fill the front seats with 4 bar 200 hour wonders who are real good with computers but no flying skills.
The Canadian market is saturated/small. I have no problem with the increase in foreign ownership, the real problem is the high taxes you will face. When your taxes are more than your fare, you've got a problem competing with the big airlines.

We are a population of barely 36 million, that capital can get better return elsewhere IMO. Still welcome news as more airlines also means more options for future pilots in terms of employment.

Also highly doubt a cseries order from jetline, could always be wrong. The investors from other countries will surely be "encouraged" to order aircraft from their home country. (Mitsubishi, Comac, Airbus, etc...)
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fish4life
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by fish4life »

The biggest question I have is who is going to fly all these planes? Between all the hiring at jazz / AC / WJ/ Encore I'm not sure where the pilots are going to come from. Heard and interview today from energet's CEO saying they plan to have 30 planes in 3 years. If that's the case wages are going to have to sky rocket.
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tbaylx
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by tbaylx »

fish4life wrote:The biggest question I have is who is going to fly all these planes? Between all the hiring at jazz / AC / WJ/ Encore I'm not sure where the pilots are going to come from. Heard and interview today from energet's CEO saying they plan to have 30 planes in 3 years. If that's the case wages are going to have to sky rocket.
Experience levels will drop further before wages move. Queue the cadet and Multi crew license programs
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Old fella »

Could be wrong but are investors lining up at our borders to pump money into two fledging LCCs in a country of this magnitude in terms of geography with a less than 40 million population mostly central and urban with includes two well established airlines(and their various feeders). . One of the LCCs indicated 24 C Series and later 16 more of them, the other said 30 aircraft in a few years, at least I thought that was what I read somewhere. I mean that is a shit load of airplanes, which will require a shit load of infrastructure/logistics and whatever which will require a bigger shit load of capital($$$$$). Just saying!!!!!

:drinkers:
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by brooks »

tbaylx wrote:
fish4life wrote:The biggest question I have is who is going to fly all these planes? Between all the hiring at jazz / AC / WJ/ Encore I'm not sure where the pilots are going to come from. Heard and interview today from energet's CEO saying they plan to have 30 planes in 3 years. If that's the case wages are going to have to sky rocket.
Experience levels will drop further before wages move. Queue the cadet and Multi crew license programs
I don't know if they can attract enough "Cadets" in time to fix their imminent problem. Experience has been slowing dwindling and it won't be long before we see Johny 250 in the right seat of Encore or Jazz.

If New Weafs can only make a buck by tearing down the "airline" to basically a travel agency that sells tickets on Flair and CDN then I doubt Jim Scott and his Asian buddies will go far. This country is simply way to big. The real problem is tax structure squeezing out the bucks out of every passenger that touches an airport in Canada. WestJet was right to fire back and say hey, your problem is not enough competition. There's Porter, CanJet, Flair, Canadian North who if they thought there was money to be made they would have expanded by now. Your real problem is taxes.
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by brooks »

Double post.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

How long until Gabor Luckas offers his infinite wisdom on this??
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xTally
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by xTally »

Greater foreign ownership of any industry has never been a good thing - unless you are a multinational. It means subjugation of whatever industry to outside interests (he who controls the money, makes the rules). It means poorer wages/working conditions for employees if the company is able to outsource. Also, any profits gained are less likely to be reinvested in productive enterprises in the country but rather are taken out of country for other purposes (aka speculation).

In other words. To me, it is like taking money from the mob boss, because you hope that will help kick-start your business (aka increase growth in the economy .... something that this government desperately wants to show it can do) and not worrying about what is going to happen a year later when the mob wants its money back.
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Spaceshuttle »

Foreign investment brings lower wages?

Have you looked at the average pilot wage in Canada lately? Why do you think they are so low? There are a few who earn good wages but the majority have to commute long hours to work, and work long duty times since Transport needs 18 years to study safety. Why? Could it be like all things Canadian, low competition and monopolies. Yes, I see that for some having one or two carriers is more than enough so long as they are the ones they work for but competition for pilots raises wages not lowers them, just look overseas.
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Last edited by Spaceshuttle on Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nottellin
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by nottellin »

Spaceshuttle wrote:Foreign incestment brings lower wages?

Have you looked at the average pilot wage in Canada lately? Why do you think they are so low? There are a few who earn good wages but the majority have to commute long hours to work, and work long duty times since Transport needs 18 years to study safety. Why? Could it be like all things Canadian, low competition and monopolies. Yes, I see that for some having one or two carriers is more than enough so long as they are the ones they work for but competition for pilots raises wages not lowers them, just look overseas.
Excellent point, if your at AC or Westjet, life is pretty good, as long as there is a steady line of guys working at the regionals for peanuts, arguably subsidising your wages. With more competition it will hopefully open up other opportunities for those of us that didn't get a degree or attend one of the chosen flight schools to meet AC's latest criteria. Furthermore it will increase the demand across the board putting pressure on the other areas of aviation to maybe compete a little harder to attract and maintain pilots
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sampsonmcd
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by sampsonmcd »

This could go either way for the pilot community.

Scenario # 1 - Higher wages due to the fact they will need to attract experience. Nobody will jump ship to take a pay cut. Most airlines have been lowering their hour requirements anyway. Who wants to leave a steady job at Encore or Jazz if they know they will lose money and job security?

Scenario # 2 - Europe 2.0, pay for your own type rating. F/O's with 250 hours. Sketchy cadet schemes.

South of the border they made a rule that you must have 1500 hrs for the right seat. Many regionals couldn't offer attractive wages, and in turn couldn't find qualified candidates willing to work for poor wages. On the other hand, some regional airlines started raising wages to account for pilot retention. It has arguably been a win for the pilots.

In Canada there will be nothing preventing these low cost carriers from Scenario # 2. Like Europe, there will probably be a push for maximum profit at the pilots expense. One needs to look no further then Wizzair, who also has the same principal investor now as Enerjet. Wizzair normally requires type ratings, and does cadet schemes where you essentially pay your entire future to the company.

How many more jobs will there be? Dont get me wrong, I'd love to see more jobs in this country and more pilots living a good life. I just think that human greed could inevitably play a major role in these companies.
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xTally
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by xTally »

Spaceshuttle wrote:Foreign investment brings lower wages?

Have you looked at the average pilot wage in Canada lately? Why do you think they are so low? There are a few who earn good wages but the majority have to commute long hours to work, and work long duty times since Transport needs 18 years to study safety. Why? Could it be like all things Canadian, low competition and monopolies. Yes, I see that for some having one or two carriers is more than enough so long as they are the ones they work for but competition for pilots raises wages not lowers them, just look overseas.
I think our wages are lower for reasons other than the fact that there isn't enough competition in Canada. But lets not just look at pilots. How about all the other people involved in making airlines run? Agents, IT workers, rampies, dispatchers, maintenance etc. I think their jobs are more at threat than ours as they are more easily outsourced.

Even if this were true, why can we not afford to provide that competition ourselves rather than resorting to foreign money and power? I think the prime reason for this (and our low wages/ working conditions) is a lack of desire to invest in the real/productive economy and an overabundance of money in the casino/investment economy.

Yes, in some ways the competition between pilots for limited number of positions is a contributing factor, but we also add to this our lack of solidarity to help each other and improve our profession. Even so, i think the previous reason far out shadows this.

As viewed in the USA, only when the lack of pilots (mainly due to retirements) threatens to stop the entire system do the wages go up. I think in Canada we are likely to see the same thing over time.

Multinational businesses like any other will try their hardest to maximize profit and minimize expenditures (often at the expense of employees). The biggest difference becomes that now the tools available to multinationals transcend the borders of a nation. We need only look back in history to see that one of the largest providers of good paying jobs, (manufacturing) has been largely off shored by multinational corporations.

And finally, the question must be asked is there really enough space/demand for more competitors? If so, how many and at what scale etc? Are we willing to sell our control over our own economy and country just for what may be a tiny amount of economic growth, when we could fund it ourselves?
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Mach1 »

nottellin wrote:
Spaceshuttle wrote:Foreign incestment brings lower wages?

Have you looked at the average pilot wage in Canada lately? Why do you think they are so low? There are a few who earn good wages but the majority have to commute long hours to work, and work long duty times since Transport needs 18 years to study safety. Why? Could it be like all things Canadian, low competition and monopolies. Yes, I see that for some having one or two carriers is more than enough so long as they are the ones they work for but competition for pilots raises wages not lowers them, just look overseas.
Excellent point, if your at AC or Westjet, life is pretty good, as long as there is a steady line of guys working at the regionals for peanuts, arguably subsidising your wages. With more competition it will hopefully open up other opportunities for those of us that didn't get a degree or attend one of the chosen flight schools to meet AC's latest criteria. Furthermore it will increase the demand across the board putting pressure on the other areas of aviation to maybe compete a little harder to attract and maintain pilots
work long duty times since Transport needs 18 years to study safety. - A very valid point. The issue is the airlines have good lobbyists. It is long over due for change.


Have you looked at the average pilot wage in Canada lately? Why do you think they are so low?... Could it be like all things Canadian, low competition and monopolies.
- Question 1: There are 35,000,000 people in Canada. Once upon a time, there were 5 or so airlines... which merged and went bankrupt until there were 2 giants who tried to kill each other and only 1 survived. An upstart was in the mix that is now the same size as one of the 2 giants that once existed in terms of the number of tails operated. Now, given the limited population of the country, how will more airlines survive and how will this drive wages upwards when you spread a finite pool of people over a larger number of carriers? Won't we just repeat the past and have multiple carriers going bankrupt?

as long as there is a steady line of guys working at the regionals for peanuts, arguably subsidising your wages. - Question 2: How, exactly, do the regionals subsidize the majors wages? I'm honestly confused by that statement.

I think a large part of the issue is, what are your expectations for pay and lifestyle? I can see how one would be bitterly disappointed were one expecting to make 100,000+ a year straight out of flight school or to only work 8 days a month. What do you think a regional pilot should be paid? What do you think the starting wage at an airline should be? How many days a month do you think you should work? In general, what are your expectations?

I have been flying with a lot of unhappy people lately. They don't like their pay and they make it clear that how our pay is structured is an issue for them. Now, I'll never say no to more money and if asked, I am taking a page straight out of the CEO handbook, I am underpaid no matter how much I make... and one should always strive for improvements. But, I can't help wondering.... the pay was laid out and explained in detail to me before the I started with the company. Did these people not understand what they were signing up for? I mean, they could have said no and looked elsewhere for that big cheque. Why take a job you are going to hate? I really think this has a lot more to do with expectations than reality.
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Ki-ll »

What's the starting wage at the regionals these days? 36k? How does the rest of the country fare in this respect?
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau ... 5a-eng.htm
According to StatCan half of individuals in workforce make less than that. Is 36k a low wage? Arguably yes, but most of the country has to live like that, so pilots are not alone in this predicament.
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by timel »

Ki-ll wrote:What's the starting wage at the regionals these days? 36k? How does the rest of the country fare in this respect?
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau ... 5a-eng.htm
According to StatCan half of individuals in workforce make less than that. Is 36k a low wage? Arguably yes, but most of the country has to live like that, so pilots are not alone in this predicament.
Pilot training cost around 55000-80000$ in 2016.
36k is ok if you haven't spent 3-8 years working in the industry already. At some point, you want to pay your debts and put some money aside for a house.

Regionals are asking their pilots at least 1500 hours of experience, it definitely reduces their training costs. Experience should be rewarded.

If this industry wants talent and to attract the appropriate people to fly their million dollars aircraft, they will have to show the money at some point.
Air Canada and Westjet are killing the regional industry.
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Ki-ll »

timel wrote: Pilot training cost around 55000-80000$ in 2016.
36k is ok if you haven't spent 3-8 years working in the industry already. At some point, you want to pay your debts and put some money aside for a house.
That would be nice, no doubt.
timel wrote: Regionals are asking their pilots at least 1500 hours of experience, it definitely reduces their training costs. Experience should be rewarded.

If this industry wants talent and to attract the appropriate people to fly their million dollars aircraft, they will have to show the money at some point.
Air Canada and Westjet are killing the regional industry.
I agree, but it makes business sense to pay such wages. People accept them. To me it seems like a problem of supply and demand, so whenever people will stop spending 80k to make 36k we will see improvement in wages.
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timel
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by timel »

Ki-ll wrote: I agree, but it makes business sense to pay such wages. People accept them. To me it seems like a problem of supply and demand, so whenever people will stop spending 80k to make 36k we will see improvement in wages.
Did you know when you were training that you salary could be 36k after multiple years in the industry?

Paying the lowest wages of the industry is fun on the short term, but on the long term they always seem to pay the price. We'll see how it works out for them 2-3 years.
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Ki-ll »

timel wrote:
Ki-ll wrote: I agree, but it makes business sense to pay such wages. People accept them. To me it seems like a problem of supply and demand, so whenever people will stop spending 80k to make 36k we will see improvement in wages.
Did you know when you were training that you salary could be 36k after multiple years in the industry?

Paying the lowest wages of the industry is fun on the short term, but on the long term they always seem to pay the price. We'll see how it works out for them 2-3 years.
I did not, I started my training a decade ago, market was quite different back then.
I agree with you, in 5 years the salary costs at Jazz will go up again, in 10 years they will probably approach the previous levels. So there will be another opportunity for them to recycle the wages with a new contact.
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Spaceshuttle »

A question, does anyone know how many foreign wet leases will be operating in Canada this winter?

I know there are some varying views on foreign ownership of a Canadian airline company but what about the wet leases that operate here about 50% of the year. It seems that foreign companies out bidding Canadians for this work in Canada is ok so I wonder how that differs from foreign investment?

I realize this is all completely legal, just wondering how investment versus wet leases differs in people's views?
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Longtimer »

Spaceshuttle: you can find that information at: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/decisions ... 50&=Search
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by dialdriver »

Spaceshuttle wrote:A question, does anyone know how many foreign wet leases will be operating in Canada this winter?

I know there are some varying views on foreign ownership of a Canadian airline company but what about the wet leases that operate here about 50% of the year. It seems that foreign companies out bidding Canadians for this work in Canada is ok so I wonder how that differs from foreign investment?

I realize this is all completely legal, just wondering how investment versus wet leases differs in people's views?

A wet lease is short term and investment is long term.
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Spaceshuttle
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Re: Liberals to lift foreign ownership of domestic airlines

Post by Spaceshuttle »

Thanks for the link longtimer!

So, the wet leases are not long term versus investment.

If I start my charter ad hoc company, and I bid on the wet leases that are currently ran yearly by the Canadian leisure airlines, would I be competing with the foreign wet leases or would my Canadian company be in front, as I am Canadian company.

If foreign wet leases are not considered long term then how many years have these companies been using these foreign carriers? When are they projecting using Canadian carriers, because I don't see any companies starting up or expanding to fill a need that will not be available to local companies as demonstrated now.

I think foreign investment, money injected into Canadian companies, creates Local pilot jobs. I fail to see how wet leases create Canadian pilot jobs, I see them as limiting the creation of local jobs.
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