Just want to say...

[I'd_fly_a_broom]

A big thank you to all the members who take time to answer questions or share personal experiences.
I'm not trying to be cheezy, but I want to say that I've been reading these forums for a long time now without ever registering or posting and I've learned a lot of vital information from many members, information that has helped me on a personal level. Some people actually take some time out just to help others out and I feel that it's worth mentioning.

Thanks again from all of us out there who read but do not post.

[LostinRotation]

Thanks for the post. I'm sure alot of people will be glad to read it....for the record, appreciation isn't always cheesy....just when you bring flowers


-=0=LIR=0=-

[...]

Hello and welcome

I look forward to reading your contributions to the forum.

[I'd_fly_a_broom]

Hello and welcome

I look forward to reading your contributions to the forum.

You know what, maybe I should. However, there isn't that much I can bring since I still consider myself a newbie even though I've been trying to break through in this industry for some time now. But if there's something I can share, I will.

[wha happen]

You know what, maybe I should. However, there isn't that much I can bring since I still consider myself a newbie even though I've been trying to break through in this industry for some time now. But if there's something I can share, I will.

So start with where you are, and what you eventually want out of this crazy industry. Maybe someone here could help you out. You'll never know if you dont ask.

[AIRUPTHERE]

I'd like to second that thanks to all of you sharing your knowledge in this forum. Im still working on becoming a 200 hr wonder, but Ive been reading this forum for a long time, and i think it has made me more aware of all the good and bad that this industry can bring. Ive been fortunate to have a job on the ground ops side of an airline here in YOW, and its given me a chance to talk a lot of pilots from all sorts of backgrounds.

Im not in a position to give much advice to anybody about this industry, but to those still considering getting your ticket, if you can find a ground job with an airline or a handler you will learn a lot more than just checking in or loading bags. Ive been at it for almost 2 years, and have yet to meet a Captain or FO that who wasnt more than helpful in sharing their experiences as a pilot and/or giving helpful advice. Talk to these guys because you will learn a lot of things that "From the Ground Up" or any other manual wont teach you.

Thanks Again!

AIRUPTHERE
CYOW

[I'd_fly_a_broom]

You know what, maybe I should. However, there isn't that much I can bring since I still consider myself a newbie even though I've been trying to break through in this industry for some time now. But if there's something I can share, I will.

So start with where you are, and what you eventually want out of this crazy industry. Maybe someone here could help you out. You'll never know if you dont ask.

I guess I can, but you will probably regret asking.




WARNING READ ONLY IF YOU ARE EXTREMELY BORED.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!









To make a long story even longer:
Let's start this off by saying I went to the best aviation college program I could find in my region and with my limited knowledge of the industry (had no family members or friends in aviation). Then graduated from that program with high recommendations, tons of references from teachers and instructors and did a road trip around the country at the wrong time and the wrong places, only to discover that all those references and good grades I got meant NOTHING if I had no hours or contacts. At least the road trip was not a total waste since I made some friends in the industry, but unfortunately they could not help me for the low time jobs, I had to get some hours (what a surprise).At this time I was slowly starting to learn what I had really gotten myself into and how it was different from what the people selling me my training had told me.
To not give up on my dream I gave up everything else: friends family and fortune (like I had any to start with anyway) and started what was to become a long take-off roll of sacrifices (still waiting for Vr).
On my way home, back from my unsuccessful road trip, broke and desperate I met this guy who was the owner of a shady aviation charter company / flight school. I spoke with him and he said he might consider to start thinking about maybe hiring. So I camped at the airport for a week and bugged him incessantly until he accepted to hire me as a part time Navajo pilot. Worked crazy hours doing everything he asked me to do aviation related or not, while I wasn’t paid for most of the work I did.
Before you crucify me please remember that I did not know better, I regret it now, I was just trying to pierce through the clouds. Now I It does not excuse anything but I did not willingly walk in and prostitute myself. The line between wanting to do an excellent job and being exploited is very thin especially when it’s done slowly on a one day at a time basis with a promise to fly used like a leash or a carrot on a stick; kind of like a horrible relationship gone wrong where you only realise how bad your partner was for you once you are out.
Anyway, after a summer of making virtually no money once living expenses and food were accounted I racked up 200 hours multi only to be slacked off during the winter. I spent that winter working in management (which I am pretty good at) but for a company I hate (had no choice needed to pay debts). Spring shows up, I quit the management job and go on job trip number two (I now know that spring is the right time for a road trip much better than, say winter, like last time).
Still nothing, even with the multi time (just to clarify at this point, I thought I should be able to get straight into a flying a job, I mean I had 200 hours of multi most of it in IFR weather, I was not a rookie anymore, so I looked only for flying jobs – ah, live and learn). Crushed discouraged I decide to head back. On my way back home I stop by at the same place I worked last summer. Like a beaten dog going back to his master for a crumb of food I knock on the door looking for some more hours (like a junkie looking for a fix). The owner liked my work last summer so he gives me a day VFR job this time which will get me some PIC time. I work there for the summer only to get slacked in the winter again, but by now I have roughly 500 hours now, 2 years after getting my licenses.
Again I look for work in the winter, still unable to find anything: “but I have 500 hours now sir, I am insurable I was told” – “No son, now you need a 1000”.
Winter comes, my IFR expires, I renew it, work in management again, the same job at the same company I hate cause it’s good money. Spring of year 3 comes I do another road trip. By now I know where I am going and what I am doing. This time I am not looking for a flying job anymore. This time I understand what I need to do. I need to go ramp. My 500 something hours and all my references are worth nothing. I need to do my time freezing my ass off until someone will let me fly their babies.
The guy I originally worked for calls me again telling me he needs another part time Navajo co-pilot. I thank him kindly for his help but tell him I will try my luck somewhere else. A week later I get a call from a company offering me a ramp position with a possibility to fly. I therefore move 3000km from home and I’ve been working the ramp ever since. I still don’t know when I am going to fly, but at least I feel closer than I have ever been to my dream.
If I had to do it all over again, I’d do my training at a company who will hire you in one form or another once you graduate. Whether it’s working the ramp or instructing or flying (if they exist). But doing this running around all over the place to get those crucial hours until you have enough to move onto a regular flying job was not a good idea at the state the market is in. This strategy could have worked in another time, but right now things seem too stagnant and minimums to get straight into a flying job seem too high to reach without a steady flying job (oh the irony).
Anyway if you’re still reading by now I will spare you anymore torture but at least I hope I’ve saved at least one person from making the same mistakes. In my humble opinion the market is tough to break through without going ramp first. I am not saying it can be done, but most likely it will take you a longer time.

[MAG1]

I don't know how you could change a thing. Jobs are almost impossible to get in the begining. Your story sound remarkably like mine. Two summer jobs in a row with a winter of hunting. Only the determined or lucky ones make it in this industry. When I was doing my private a guy told me to do it for the love, not the money. Ain't that the truth! You'll make it.

[mellow_pilot]

For those who think that low time guys don't have any good advice, I have this to say.

I may be low on hours, but we learn from mistakes right? I've F'd up HUGE!!!
That makes me an expert.

Don't hesitate to share your stupid moments. I need all the help I can get!

[350TT]

Coming from another low-timer...

Everyone has instincts... learn to read your own. No two people will have the same way of recognizing a bad situation.

Quick examples of my own instincts/subconscious methods: I have learned that if I am late for work a couple of times in one month -- it's time for me to leave that job as I am obviously very unhappy. A job I like, however, I will want to wake up and be there.

Also, if I move and things are still in boxes after 2 months -- I must really not want to be there No, it's not just laziness.

[Cat Driver]

Id_fly...:

" only to discover that all those references and good grades I got meant NOTHING if I had no hours or contacts. "

I disagree, those good grades and references mean " EVERYTHING " to you because it supports your own self worth.

Unless one strives to be the best they can be you will never be what you want to be.

So cheer up, I enjoyed your post and most of us have been there.

Things will get better as time passes.

Cat

[748 ho]

MEN!!!!! that guy "I FLY A BROOM" is thick as a brick buddy
you have not learnt a think here that bitch way of want to sweep,
clean crappers your a pilot get some pride and follow my ten steps
and you can be at ac in 6 years



HOPE TO SEE YAHHHHHHH AT GROUND SCHOOL NEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mario]

MEN!!!!! that guy "I FLY A BROOM" is thick as a brick buddy
you have not learnt a think here that bitch way of want to sweep,
clean crappers your a pilot get some pride and follow my ten steps
and you can be at ac in 6 years



HOPE TO SEE YAHHHHHHH AT GROUND SCHOOL NEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who ARE you. My first instinct was to make a smart remark. In fact, as I was reading your post I had a look of disgust on my face and mutterd a few anyway. My roommate pointed it out to me, "what are you reading?" he said. Regardless, I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and at least read a few of your other posts; maybe you've had helpful things to say before. NOPE! So it's really not worth it but just so you know, there a few keys on the keyboard that are not just for decoration and will make your rediculous posts easier to read.
. period-used at the end of a complete sentance or thought
, comma-used for a pause in a sentence when a complete thought isn't quite finished
! exclamation mark-denotes excitement or emotion-overuse, like all caps, can make people angry

I'd Fly...I've enjoyed your contribution and look forward to hearing more from you.

[Beechball]

For those of you who haven't had the pleasure.... That was 748 Ho. He makes the occaisional appearance every couple of months then goes away. He's been around for a couple of years and dates back to the old forum. Once you get used to the attitude he actualy becomes funny in his stupidity. Harmless as a housefly and just as annoying as one. Can be readily identified by the slogan... "KICK ASS MEN!"

[wha happen]

i'd fly:

I enjoyed reading your post. I have this advice for ya, keep your head up, with the majors starting to hire again it will create the vaccuum effect and with you time you should be able to lock something down. Dont concentrate on going to the major centers, ie calgary, vancouver, toronto... go to the smaller towns, dont take no for an answer.

And by the way dont let that idiots post get you down. he is obviously autistic.

[Phlyer]

I'd Fly - your story is very similar to most everyone else trying to be a pilot. A lot of people would be very envious of your multi time - once you hit the 'magic' 1000 hours you will find it helpful.
Stick with it. I know it sucks bad, but you will find yourself flying soon and then you will start to think 'I can't believe I get paid for this!'.
Those that want it find a way. Best of luck.

[LostinRotation]

Those that want it find a way. Best of luck.

Well said....


-=0=LIR=0=-

[I'd_fly_a_broom]

Thank you for the words of encouragement.

I do know that my story is not a special one and a lot of piltos have been through the same thing, and probably worst. I wasn't writing it for sympathy but rather for someone who is starting off to have that crucial information before making his choices. Every road is different for all of us, but it's always nice to know what types of bumps and curves to expect.

I know I am going to make it, I just don't know when.

[gelbisch]

I know I am going to make it, I just don't know when.

Well that's something that'll never go away!

From 500 to 5000 hours I think we're all always wondering, "when"???



Don't worry, man... one of these days you'll look back and marvel at how all the years, your last few jobs and several thousand hours have flown by. (No pun intended.)

[chipmunk]

If I had to do it all over again, I’d do my training at a company who will hire you in one form or another once you graduate. Whether it’s working the ramp or instructing or flying (if they exist)...

... In my humble opinion the market is tough to break through without going ramp first. I am not saying it can be done, but most likely it will take you a longer time.

Yes, they do exist... it's the local flight training unit at the airport! If it's a busy enough place, and not only do you do your Instructor Rating there (and better yet, your CPL and IFR, or everything!) AND hang around a lot and help out wherever you can and show an interest... you have a good chance of being hired on as a part time instructor and rampie. Work hard at it, build time towards your ATP, start/continue networking with co-workers, former instructors, companies at the airfield... you'll get there...

[trey kule]

Nice post. You will do OK.

If my decades of experience in the industry are of any value I would only offer all new pilots this advice....be careful of taking a right seat position.
I know you want to fly..we all do...but many of the insurance companies, clients etc. have regulations that want only PIC time. A 200 hour pilot who slips into the right seat of a lear jet will remain in the right seat forever...Most companies know this but, like the flight school that forgot to mention how hard it is to break into the industry, they wont let you know that you have chosen a career position.

Anyway, good luck.

[tom]

I like this:
to become a long take-off roll of sacrifices (still waiting for Vr).

I'm also in a same situation, you don't know if you just continue to get screwed or leave for something else.

I m still here doing my job, but i can't see the light at the end of that tunnel.


Good luck and don't give up, I'd fly.

Tom.