Two union drives

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FenceSitter
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Re: Two union drives

Post by FenceSitter »

Bond123 wrote:Soooo what happens to the hundreds of Encore pilots if Westjet does decide to unionize? Heard from friends there that it wouldn't be a good outcome for them!?
If I was an Encore pilot I would be organizing too. This would help ensure as much consistency as possible in my knowledge and input when the inevitable opportunity to transition to mainline comes up.
Don't let the company hold you back, move forward with everyone else.
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jjj
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Re: Two union drives

Post by jjj »

Fanblade wrote:
jjj wrote:
complexintentions wrote:Union drives at one of Canada's (whopping total of two) major airlines is absolutely a matter of public interest, especially to those in the industry. Which I would presume, is the major target audience of AvCanada?

I did not see any personal attacks or specific union strategy details. Anything else is fair game, to my mind. I would be very careful posting in a company-monitored forum.

But let's not get carried away with the "anti-bullying" meme. jjj does sound a bit of a condescending dick, but thankfully, that is still his right. Perhaps if more people learned the art of the clever comeback, they wouldn't need to go all SJW right off the bat.
I thought that was a well written post.

JJJ
Of course you do.
Somebody needs a sense of humour.
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Last edited by jjj on Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Checklist
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Checklist »

Bond123 wrote:Soooo what happens to the hundreds of Encore pilots if Westjet does decide to unionize? Heard from friends there that it wouldn't be a good outcome for them!?
Worst case scenario our newest flow through will lose 47 numbers.

Best case scenario we keep the one list post certification.

I feel like it's a 50/50 shot at this point. The one list is against ALPA's constitution but, exceptions have been made in the past. But if that is the case, I certainly see grievances in the future.
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rxl
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Re: Two union drives

Post by rxl »

Checklist wrote:
Bond123 wrote:Soooo what happens to the hundreds of Encore pilots if Westjet does decide to unionize? Heard from friends there that it wouldn't be a good outcome for them!?
Worst case scenario our newest flow through will lose 47 numbers.

Best case scenario we keep the one list post certification.

I feel like it's a 50/50 shot at this point. The one list is against ALPA's constitution but, exceptions have been made in the past. But if that is the case, I certainly see grievances in the future.
Please explain the statement that "one list is against ALPA's constitution". I am no expert on the ALPA constitution, I am however a long time ALPA member who has been through ALPA sanctioned seniority list mergers - one of which created ONE list out of FIVE - so I don't know what on earth you are talking about with that statement. I am also under the impression that one integrated Westjet/Encore list currently exists so I fail to see how it would be detrimental to anyone at the Teal team to sign an ALPA card.
Misinformation is not helpful to anyone.

Just the facts please, just the facts.
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wirez
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Re: Two union drives

Post by wirez »

rxl wrote:
Checklist wrote:
Bond123 wrote:Soooo what happens to the hundreds of Encore pilots if Westjet does decide to unionize? Heard from friends there that it wouldn't be a good outcome for them!?
Worst case scenario our newest flow through will lose 47 numbers.

Best case scenario we keep the one list post certification.

I feel like it's a 50/50 shot at this point. The one list is against ALPA's constitution but, exceptions have been made in the past. But if that is the case, I certainly see grievances in the future.
Please explain the statement that "one list is against ALPA's constitution". I am no expert on the ALPA constitution, I am however a long time ALPA member who has been through ALPA sanctioned seniority list mergers - one of which created ONE list out of FIVE - so I don't know what on earth you are talking about with that statement. I am also under the impression that one integrated Westjet/Encore list currently exists so I fail to see how it would be detrimental to anyone at the Teal team to sign an ALPA card.
Misinformation is not helpful to anyone.

Just the facts please, just the facts.
+1
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Checklist
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Checklist »

Oh, well forgive me.

Then Encore pilots need not worry flowing over from a non-unionized company to a union company.
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jjj
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Re: Two union drives

Post by jjj »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
jjj wrote:FenceSitter,

Assuming you are a WS pilot - airing out your laundry on here is in poor taste. We have two online forums to discuss these matters.

BingBong,

If you think that was well written then you need to finish grade 9 and prepare yourself because grade 10 is way harder.


JJJ
The kook-aid runs thick in this one, almost makes me sick just thinking about it. I'm always surprised when fellow pilots surffering from poor conditions side with the management putting them there. But then again the big wigs run the company knowing there's people like you out there.
Hello YYCjetdriver,

You may join the list of people who assume I side with management. I find that interesting because there was nothing in my post that gave an opinion on the issues at WS. There are plenty of venues to discuss these matters internally which is my preference.

I'm just a line pilot and I truly don't care what side of the fence people sit.

Have a nice day.

JJJ
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Checklist
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Checklist »

rxl wrote:
Checklist wrote:
Bond123 wrote:Soooo what happens to the hundreds of Encore pilots if Westjet does decide to unionize? Heard from friends there that it wouldn't be a good outcome for them!?
Worst case scenario our newest flow through will lose 47 numbers.

Best case scenario we keep the one list post certification.

I feel like it's a 50/50 shot at this point. The one list is against ALPA's constitution but, exceptions have been made in the past. But if that is the case, I certainly see grievances in the future.
Please explain the statement that "one list is against ALPA's constitution". I am no expert on the ALPA constitution, I am however a long time ALPA member who has been through ALPA sanctioned seniority list mergers - one of which created ONE list out of FIVE - so I don't know what on earth you are talking about with that statement. I am also under the impression that one integrated Westjet/Encore list currently exists so I fail to see how it would be detrimental to anyone at the Teal team to sign an ALPA card.
Misinformation is not helpful to anyone.

Just the facts please, just the facts.

Out of curiosity, how is seniority chosen at a Jazz new hire course when there is both ALPA members and non- members?
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Checklist
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Checklist »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
jjj wrote:FenceSitter,

Assuming you are a WS pilot - airing out your laundry on here is in poor taste. We have two online forums to discuss these matters.

BingBong,

If you think that was well written then you need to finish grade 9 and prepare yourself because grade 10 is way harder.


JJJ
The kook-aid runs thick in this one, almost makes me sick just thinking about it. I'm always surprised when fellow pilots surffering from poor conditions side with the management putting them there. But then again the big wigs run the company knowing there's people like you out there.
If you don't hate where you work, it must be kool-aid.
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mbav8r
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Re: Two union drives

Post by mbav8r »

checklist wrote;
Out of curiosity, how is seniority chosen at a Jazz new hire course when there is both ALPA members and non- members?
Well, I'm not sure what this has to do with the WJ/Encore list but a new hire from a ALPA represented pilot group draws their number first, if there is only one out of the entire class, they would automatically be the senior pilot in that class.
However, it is worth noting, this is not an ALPA policy, the Jazz group passed this into our constitution.
So, that being said, it would be up to the WJ MEC once formed, how to deal with the one list issue and if a WJ pilot decided they didn't like it could file a grievance and potentially challenge how a group from a separate entity has a seniority number ahead of them. Wouldn't be the first time this has happened.
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rxl
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Re: Two union drives

Post by rxl »

Checklist wrote:Oh, well forgive me.

Then Encore pilots need not worry flowing over from a non-unionized company to a union company.
I'm sure that the actual flow through agreement spells out pretty clearly the process and consequences of "flowing over". That agreement should become part of the collective agreement of a certified pilot group going forward.
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IKEA_Monkey
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Re: Two union drives

Post by IKEA_Monkey »

The "agreement" on flow is just that, an agreement. It is hardly worth the paper it is written on and can change with the stoke of a pen. If mainline certifies, everything is in jeopardy. For every person that says flow would survive, there is another who says it will not. There are strong arguments from both sides for the success or failure of flow/DOH. But no one knows for sure what will happen, its a coin toss. The best option would be for Encore to certify immediately after mainline, but even then nothing is guaranteed.

In the mean time everyone is working full tilt. This is great for quick upgrades but at the end of the day we're all here for one reason and if it disappears, whats the point? The guys about to flow are just hanging on, hoping to make it over before it hits the fan. The rest are waiting to see what happens. If encore gets the shaft, you can bet the vast majority will be peddling their resumes with fresh Q400 ratings and hoping for a call from big red.
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rxl
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Re: Two union drives

Post by rxl »

IKEA_Monkey wrote:The "agreement" on flow is just that, an agreement. It is hardly worth the paper it is written on and can change with the stoke of a pen. If mainline certifies, everything is in jeopardy. For every person that says flow would survive, there is another who says it will not. There are strong arguments from both sides for the success or failure of flow/DOH. But no one knows for sure what will happen, its a coin toss. The best option would be for Encore to certify immediately after mainline, but even then nothing is guaranteed.

In the mean time everyone is working full tilt. This is great for quick upgrades but at the end of the day we're all here for one reason and if it disappears, whats the point? The guys about to flow are just hanging on, hoping to make it over before it hits the fan. The rest are waiting to see what happens. If encore gets the shaft, you can bet the vast majority will be peddling their resumes with fresh Q400 ratings and hoping for a call from big red.
It would be pretty disingenuous of WJ pilot leadership if the flow through agreement was to disappear post certification.
If that were to happen then the lessons that should have been learned from the long sad history of mainline/regional relations at the "Red Team" will have been lost.
This would be especially disappointing given the fact that WJ pilot leaders on both sides of the employee/management equation lived that history.
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mbav8r
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Re: Two union drives

Post by mbav8r »

"If that were to happen then the lessons that should have been learned from the long sad history of mainline/regional relations at the "Red Team" will have been lost."

Human nature being what it is, the die was cast when WJ Pilots agreed to allow Encore to be set up as a separate entity.
I predict if the vote for certification is positive there will be an announcement shortly afterwards that Encore will be flying Cseries or similar and let the whipsawing begin. Nah, just fooling around, that would never happen!
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Squid
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Squid »

The reason it works for them is due to it being simple without red tape. It only takes one grievance from an off the street hire direct Wj to start the motions of common employer if they certify (not to mention if one of the 3 parties doesn't play well in the sandbox) you now have years of cost and headache before a hint of resolve if any. If it ain't broke...again that's why it works. Grab the popcorn because the ones that say it will be fine post cert (I have a bridge I wanna sell ya too) there's reasons why jazz and AC could never achieve an industry milestone like that.
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mantogasrsrwy
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Re: Two union drives

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

+1 I could see certification opening a huge can of worms and paying for a lot of lawyer's children to go to private school.
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BlueSkies12
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Re: Two union drives

Post by BlueSkies12 »

+1
If a WJ off the street pilot is paying union dues and then see hundreds of Encore pilots slip in ahead of him I could see some hard feelings. That's the point of a union, to protect your seniority and working conditions.
Encore better jump on board as well IMHO.
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Squid
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Squid »

I don't even know if them jumping onboard would be the solution as you only have to look at how Jazz flow works. It's nowhere near as good as wj. Years of tape. Red that is.
This thread can demonstrate the incompetence by what is perceived to be better.viewtopic.php?t=88506
Like I said. Simple is good and wj arguably has the best arrangement due to the lack of fighting and restrictions. Like I said grab the popcorn.
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

Squid wrote:The reason it works for them is due to it being simple without red tape. It only takes one grievance from an off the street hire direct Wj to start the motions of common employer if they certify (not to mention if one of the 3 parties doesn't play well in the sandbox) you now have years of cost and headache before a hint of resolve if any. If it ain't broke...again that's why it works. Grab the popcorn because the ones that say it will be fine post cert (I have a bridge I wanna sell ya too) there's reasons why jazz and AC could never achieve an industry milestone like that.
Hey Squid, I do not believe a grievance can lead to a Single (Common) Employer designation. Such a designation occurs under section 35 of the Canada Labour Code and only under application by a union or an employer usually at the time of sale/merger of a company (but there a few other circumstances I think).

A grievance only concerns violations of an employee's rights under the CBA. If an employee's grievance is successful, the board orders the corrective action.

Cheers

JS
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Squid
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Re: Two union drives

Post by Squid »

But several will. Are you saying their flow doesn't work well right now? Take a search for common employer complaints and the red tape
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theglob ... ent=safari
Then the responses http://iamaw2323.ca/2015/06/01/air-cana ... lletin-27/
I haven't heard of an update lately but I think you get my drift with the time it takes i.e. airontario
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