Canadian Piper PA-28 down in Pennsylvania

[tsgas]

IMHO PF has the proper attitude towards such a grave subject . Saxub on the other hand should lay off the BS and not be defending dangerous and deadly behavior.

They are plenty of places to go and write drivel but please show some respect for the 3 dead and take this subject seriously.

[pdw]

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[ditar]

It's drivel, not dribble.

[pdw]

I'd like to hear PDW's thoughts here.

It's a grievious accident, ... tragic. One of them lives close (1/2 mile), so really hits home.

I spent some time this week searching wx history, and flightaware. So I calculated for your discussion (with flightaware's track data) and came to realize that a reasonably conservative power setting is being utilized in favourable winds; therefore, less chance of a fuel issue existed as mentioned above. What's reasonable cruise power for the piper Pa 28, as I've never flown one .. for 95kts IAS ... around 68% power at 6K ?

My condolences.

[Rookie50]

I'd like to hear PDW's thoughts here.

It's a grievious accident, ... tragic. One of them lives close (1/2 mile), so really hits home.

I spent some time this week searching wx history, and flightaware. So I calculated for your discussion (with flightaware's track data) and came to realize that a reasonably conservative power setting is being utilized in favourable winds; therefore, less chance of a fuel issue existed as mentioned above. What's reasonable cruise power for the piper Pa 28, as I've never flown one .. for 95kts IAS ... around 68% power at 6K ?

My condolences.

I have a question ---

Primarily, as PF raised, I'd like to hear any constructive reasons for this practice of low time instructors taking pre - PPL students on an extended cross country like this.

I'd also like to hear how common this practice is at other schools.

[pdw]

on an extended cross country like this

There are few if any "schools" south of lake Ontario this close to the border (5 miles away). St Catharines is a relatively low activity airport with customs so handy, a time advantage for US returns. On an east/northeast course or northwest out of this penninsula, all tracks lead towards USA territory anyhow. From the Niagara vantage point at the southernmost end of the country it's very attractive to escape a shorter distance south into the US where it's almost always warmer.

Out of Niagara area it is typically easier to find suitable weather southbound to reasonably-close destinations once into the cooler/colder months, so not as easily trapped-in as in around these northern lakes (esp against the border as we are here) .. which can be a serious constraint for training interests of many a student. Lake Ontario just by itself has always seriously blocked the closer training destination-locations North and Northeast bound from CYSN, not to mention any other no fly zones in that direction. So safetywise, for the training perspective (single engine), no flyovers across bodies like Lake Ontario are allowed (and SOP-wise) beyond the approved gliding distance from shore.

[xysn]

My condolences to the club and families of the deceased.

http://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Report ... m&IType=FA

What really scares me is that I really wanted to go on this trip but couldn't. I understood it to be a fun excursion.

I don't understand why the group would take the risk of flying night IFR in a light single through less than perfect weather on a fun run.

Since I have little experience and no instrument rating I wouldn't have flown PIC through this last leg, but I'm not sure I would have spoken up (as a pax) or bailed on the instructor's decision to fly the last leg through such conditions. Furthermore I wonder what effect flying as a group had on the pilot's decision. (i.e. "Other two planes are leaving, why not us?")

[Rookie50]

My condolences to the club and families of the deceased.

http://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Report ... m&IType=FA

What really scares me is that I really wanted to go on this trip but couldn't. I understood it to be a fun excursion.

I don't understand why the group would take the risk of flying night IFR in a light single through less than perfect weather on a fun run.

Since I have little experience and no instrument rating I wouldn't have flown PIC through this last leg, but I'm not sure I would have spoken up (as a pax) or bailed on the instructor's decision to fly the last leg through such conditions. Furthermore I wonder what effect flying as a group had on the pilot's decision. (i.e. "Other two planes are leaving, why not us?")

Learning lesson.

REGARDLESS of the proximate actual cause of this accident, I will beat this horse:

Day IFR Ok, in appropriate conditions for aircraft, weather, experience, ect..
Night VFR ok, ditto above plus terrain considerations,

NIGHT IFR (IMC) -- Single engine piston -- not ok with me, at least at my experience level, which is more than that poor instructor had. One reason, (of many, fatigue not a minor factor at night) Convective weather, simply can't see what is going on with cloud formations and development. Blind.

[Mick G]

It's drivel, not dribble.

Lol. C'mon lads...

[CpnCrunch]

Learning lesson.

REGARDLESS of the proximate actual cause of this accident, I will beat this horse:

Day IFR Ok, in appropriate conditions for aircraft, weather, experience, ect..
Night VFR ok, ditto above plus terrain considerations,

NIGHT IFR (IMC) -- Single engine piston -- not ok with me, at least at my experience level, which is more than that poor instructor had. One reason, (of many, fatigue not a minor factor at night) Convective weather, simply can't see what is going on with cloud formations and development. Blind.

It probably depends what weather info they had onboard. Even with the free FltPlan Go app and a data connection, they probably would have had enough info to at least divert around the bad weather. From reading the preliminary report, it sounds like they didn't really have any idea of the weather ahead, and for some reason they didn't really seem to interested in ATC's warnings. You can see from the radar that they would have had to have made a really significant diversion left about 20 miles before they did (i.e. when ATC warned them that there was heavy precip 20 miles ahead).

[photofly]

Both missing the point.

It is not ok for a trainee instructor to conduct a PPL training flight a) without direct supervision b) at night or c) in IMC even if he or she has weather radar on board. It's not ok for a trainee instructor to ferry students about across international borders, single pilot at night or IFR without a charter OC, 1000 hours PIC, 100 hours IMC, a working autopilot as required in law and with all the dispatch oversight that TC requires for such an operation.

It is not ok from the point of view of the now-dead students who were charged money and expected to be trained and not killed, nor from the point of view of the trainee instructor who was given money and set up by his operation so as to kill both himself and his passengers.

For all these reasons and probably a dozen more this flight should never have happened - it should not even have been contemplated - and three people should not be dead. This is a complete clusterfuck right from the top down.

[Rookie50]

Both missing the point.

It is not ok for a trainee instructor to conduct a PPL training flight a) without direct supervision b) at night or c) in IMC even if he or she has weather radar on board. It's not ok for a trainee instructor to ferry students about across international borders, single pilot at night or IFR without a charter OC, 1000 hours PIC, 100 hours IMC, a working autopilot as required in law and with all the dispatch oversight that TC requires for such an operation.

It is not ok from the point of view of the now-dead students who were charged money and expected to be trained and not killed, nor from the point of view of the trainee instructor who was given money and set up by his operation so as to kill both himself and his passengers.

For all these reasons and probably a dozen more this flight should never have happened - it should not even have been contemplated - and three people should not be dead. This is a complete clusterfuck right from the top down.

Agree 100% with all of this, too.

My comments were over and above your observations, simply regarding heightened risk at night, and apply even to licenced pilots not training anyone.

[photofly]

I guess I am most angry at the "it was just one of those things that happens in the normal course of training, nothing to learn here" attitude from the St Catharines Flying Club.

Out of seven instructors there still listed as alive at the time of writing. five hold a Class 1 or Class 2 instructor rating and have been judged as competent to supervise other instructors. And that's the best they can do.

Christ, for all we know, the CFI told them to be sure to practice their partial panel work en route too.

[Rookie50]

I guess I am most angry at the "it was just one of those things that happens in the normal course of training, nothing to learn here" attitude from the St Catharines Flying Club.

Agree. And I wrote earlier, TC should investigate this practice.

[CpnCrunch]

Both missing the point.

It is not ok for a trainee instructor to conduct a PPL training flight a) without direct supervision b) at night or c) in IMC even if he or she has weather radar on board. It's not ok for a trainee instructor to ferry students about across international borders, single pilot at night or IFR without a charter OC, 1000 hours PIC, 100 hours IMC, a working autopilot as required in law and with all the dispatch oversight that TC requires for such an operation.

It is not ok from the point of view of the now-dead students who were charged money and expected to be trained and not killed, nor from the point of view of the trainee instructor who was given money and set up by his operation so as to kill both himself and his passengers.

For all these reasons and probably a dozen more this flight should never have happened - it should not even have been contemplated - and three people should not be dead. This is a complete clusterfuck right from the top down.

Was this flight done as part of their training? I got the impression it was just a fun trip arranged by the pilots themselves.

[photofly]

The only person on board with a pilot licence was the Class 4 instructor, and the other two were PPL students at the same establishment. However you swing it, that makes it an instructional flight.

According to the flight school and posters in this thread these trips are a regular occurrence organized by the club as part of PPL training, and there were three aircraft on the foreign jaunt that weekend. I await the press release boasting that getting two planes out of three back safely is a Transport Canada passing grade.

[trampbike]

NIGHT IFR (IMC) -- Single engine piston -- not ok with me, at least at my experience level

Amen to that. I'd even add:
At any experience level, probably not ok.

Seriously people, as enjoyable as it can be, night flying can be nasty.
Be extra conservative with your decision to fly or not. Weather and terrain that would seem benign during the day can easily bite you at night.

[valleyboy]

So peel away all the layers and it boils down to instructors subsidizing hours on the backs of naive green pilot wantabes. As asked before how can a school condone this practice. To a new pilot an instructor walks on water but in reality most are not much more advanced than the ones they are to training to fly. It's like a grade 1 student teaching kindergarten. The system is truly broken.

[Rookie50]

Deleted, redundant.

[Cat Driver]

The system is truly broken.

It's been broken for many decades.

And the only one responsible is your Government drones at TC.