Pull up buddy pull up

[nbinont]

A better view of the flight paths: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/NT ... 047-1.html

[SuperchargedRS]

I purely replied to SuperchargedRS' comment on charging him with manslaughter. This is where my outrage comes from. Yup may have made mistakes. But he is not a criminal for it.

‘If the President Does It, That Means It’s Not Illegal’

Same chit, don't be a fool, this has manslaughter written all over it.

Someone died, everything they dreamed of, everything they could have been was destroyed, because someone failed to act, at the very least this isn't for your or I to decide, its for a jury to decide, and if it was your brother or mother who died in that C150, you'd demand the same.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I purely replied to SuperchargedRS' comment on charging him with manslaughter. This is where my outrage comes from. Yup may have made mistakes. But he is not a criminal for it.

‘If the President Does It, That Means It’s Not Illegal’

Same chit, don't be a fool, this has manslaughter written all over it.

Someone died, everything they dreamed of, everything they could have been was destroyed, because someone failed to act, at the very least this isn't for your or I to decide, its for a jury to decide, and if it was your brother or mother who died in that C150, you'd demand the same.

You might have an argument for criminal negligence causing death. It'd be a tough case though, the military tends to circle the wagons when their actions are questioned.
Illya

[righthandman]

This was the 2nd call from ATC, furthermore this second call was something to the effect... if you don't see the conflicting traffic... turn immediately.

Sorry folks but in my opinion this was more of a preventable collision (seemingly on the part of the F-16 driver) than an "accident". If a controller says to me to turn immediately and I don't have a better plan, I turn immediately.

[Fly The Wing]

I wonder how much experience the controller had with Vipers in IFR training. I didn't know they had any auto flight systems, I'd assume any turn would be at 90 degrees of bank at 6 G's with full burner. The controller expecting this and getting rate one may well have been an issue.

[Rockie]

I wonder how much experience the controller had with Vipers in IFR training. I didn't know they had any auto flight systems, I'd assume any turn would be at 90 degrees of bank at 6 G's with full burner. The controller expecting this and getting rate one may well have been an issue.

Not an issue. Fighters are flown IFR just like any other aircraft except maybe in formation, in which case they are even smoother than civilian aircraft.

[AuxBatOn]

Watch this video

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/3YY67jupp ... ure=oembed[/youtube]

The call from the controller was extremely late in my opinion and the pilot did comply l, albeit a little later than ideal, with her instruction that ultimately led to the collision (south vector vs north and when the Cessna had a southerly heading).

Remember, you are watching this video from you couch at 1g and 0 Kts.

[pelmet]

Scenario....

Controller: “Death four one traffic twelve o’clock two miles opposite direction one thousand two hundred indicated type unknown”

Death 41: "Death 41, request 2500'"

Controller: "Death 41 Approved"

Collision avoided.


Please pass on the message to your buddies as the best idea. I will do the same. So simple once thought of in advance. A climb and a turn together eliminate the blame game.

[AuxBatOn]

Scenario....

Controller: “Death four one traffic twelve o’clock two miles opposite direction one thousand two hundred indicated type unknown”

Death 41: "Death 41, request 2500'"

Controller: "Death 41 Approved"

Collision avoided.


Please pass on the message to your buddies as the best idea. I will do the same. So simple once thought of in advance. A climb and a turn together eliminate the blame game.

How about the controller: Death 41, traffic 12 oclock 5 miles, 1,200 ft. Climb to 2,500 ft.

Collision avoided.

It's not all on the pilot. Easy to armchair quaterback without knowing what the guy did or did not hear and what was happening from his POV.

Read this: http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/59000-59499/59235/596836.pdf

He did not hear the second traffic call. And did not completely process the aircraft was two miles until he was prompted to turn immediately.

[pelmet]

As I said, let's avoid the blame game. Enough has been said previously. Lets think about this accident here and in the potential one in the future and avoid the next collision. This was at 250 knots and applies to many of us flying higher speed aircraft.

Think about saying what I quoted above to the controller right now and when you get the same call from ATC some day in the future, it will roll right off your lips as a reply and the collision was almost certainly avoided as two evasive maneuvers were made...vertically and horizontally.

In the end, that is more important than anything else.

[AuxBatOn]

As I said, let's avoid the blame game by avoiding the collision. This was at 250 knots and applies to many of us in higher speed aircraft. Think about saying this to the controller right now and when you get the same call some day in the future, it will roll right off your lips as a reply and the collision was almost certainly avoided as two evasive maneuvers were made...vertically and horizontally.

I am not arguing against that. I am arguing against criminal charges on the pilot. I am trying to show there is more to the story than what some people here assume. This accident could have been avoided 1,000 ways, including an earlier call from ATC, him reacting to the initial 2 mile call, the controller giving him a vector North, him climbing after the third call.

This is the classic so-called "swiss cheese" where not one individual or circumstance caused the accident.

[AuxBatOn]

Here's another link from the NTSB (the mishap report).

Summary: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviat ... 21bbcf042d

Full Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviat ... 59A&akey=1

[SuperchargedRS]

Despite what they teach kids in school, there is right and wrong and not everyone wins, if the primary cause of death was the F-16, that's on him, and if he had a duty to act, ability to act, and didn't that's criminal

Same deal, I drive up to a slowing school bus, it's lights start to flash, little stop sign comes out, I don't have visual on any kids so I keep my current speed and go to pass, I nail your kid. Lets not play the blame game, youll pick your mangled kid up, Ill get my bumper and maybe hood fixed, alls good right!

I mean its not my fault, the bus driver could have done it different, your kid was stupid and didn't look both ways, I was really butt hurt about trump winning, fill in the blank for lame excuse of the day.




[quote="AuxBatOnI am not arguing against that. I am arguing against criminal charges on the pilot. I am trying to show there is more to the story than what some people here assume. This accident could have been avoided 1,000 ways, including an earlier call from ATC, him reacting to the initial 2 mile call, the controller giving him a vector North, him climbing after the third call.

This is the classic so-called "swiss cheese" where not one individual or circumstance caused the accident.[/quote]

Why is it, especially in Canada, folks have just a hard time grasping that sometimes the government gets someone killed and needs to be held accountable, Id wager a beer if the military F16 was replaced with a rich private sector PPL dude in his personal warbird, words like murder, arrogant, stupid, etc would be all over this thread.

[AuxBatOn]

Funny that the NTSB doesn't agree with you. But sure, if it doesn't fit your narrative, it's a conspiracy...

[SuperchargedRS]

You're right, the government investigated itself and found it didn't do anything wrong



All those sims and everything, you know damn well if that F16 was a king air, floatplane, anything private sector that would have been a very different report, especially seeing how the victim died and the F-16 guy was still around to tell his story, mess around in the sim, offer a "the more you know" session on see and avoid, mention ADSB, and bada bing, we looked into ourselves and found we did nothing wrong, nothing to see here folks, move along.

[AuxBatOn]

I don't think it would have been any different.

The NTSB is an independant organization from the USAF. I have read plenty of reports that blame the pilot in their investigation.

This is a civilian on civilian mid-air over the Hudson: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acci ... AR1005.pdf

Causes: Inherent limitations of see-and-avoid and ATC distraction.

I get it, you don't like the military. Doesn't mean you cannot be objective in your assessments...

I don't know where you took the ADSB thing on the pilot.. This is not something most fighters have.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Was anything said to the Cessna driver. Like, "you have F16 traffic your 12 o'clock....". Not sure about you guys, but if I was in that Cessna, I'd have done some turning n burning!
So simple to have been a nonevent.
funny though....that it's nobody's fault.
Illya

[SuperchargedRS]

I don't think it would have been any different.

The NTSB is an independant organization from the USAF. I have read plenty of reports that blame the pilot in their investigation.

This is a civilian on civilian mid-air over the Hudson: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acci ... AR1005.pdf

Causes: Inherent limitations of see-and-avoid and ATC distraction.

I get it, you don't like the military. Doesn't mean you cannot be objective in your assessments...

I don't know where you took the ADSB thing on the pilot.. This is not something most fighters have.

Yeah, same thing as my company making a separate division to investigate the company, no one in their right mind would think that was impartial.

[Rockie]

This conspiracy theory stuff has now expanded to include questioning the objectivity and professional integrity of the NTSB?

[SuperchargedRS]

You're right, any questioning of government must be a conspiracy theory

And the NTSB would have done the exact same level and reached the same findings if it was a PPL in a king air vs the f16

They are the government, and they are here to help

[complexintentions]

I agree his reaction was perhaps not ideal

I agree, that colliding with another aircraft is 'perhaps" not ideal. Nah. I'm gonna use even stronger language and say that it's really not great.

the military tends to circle the wagons when their actions are questioned.

What are you talking about? I haven't seen any of that in this thread!

[Rockie]

You're right, any questioning of government must be a conspiracy theory

And the NTSB would have done the exact same level and reached the same findings if it was a PPL in a king air vs the f16

They are the government, and they are here to help

The NTSB owes the USAF nothing and feels no overriding loyalty to them that would unduly influence their investigation. If you're going to question the veracity of the NTSB you're going to have to provide some evidence to back it up, otherwise it's just another paranoid anti-government conspiracy theory.

[trampbike]

You're right, any questioning of government must be a conspiracy theory

And the NTSB would have done the exact same level and reached the same findings if it was a PPL in a king air vs the f16

They are the government, and they are here to help

How close do you think civilian governmental agencies and the military really are?

[SuperchargedRS]

If you don think one federal agency cant put a little unofficial pressure on another, well I wish the world ran in the ideal fashion you see it running in your head.

[Rockie]

Let's see your evidence.