I had a nice chat with a lawyer-pilot this afternoon. He tells me that ramp checks violate the charter of rights. CARS dont cut it...they are just regulations. Airnautic act allows for it but it doesnt take precendent over the charter...and the charter says we can not be detained or held without cause...
He tells me ramp checks are illegal...So.....anyone who has had a random ramp check lately and wants to know more..send me a private email.
ramp checks illegal?
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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A Regulator
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Ramp Checks slang for Inspection
Remember the queen has deep pockets
The following is a quote from the Aeronautics Act
Powers to enter, seize and detain
8.7 (1) Subject to subsection (4), the Minister may
(a) enter, for the purposes of making inspections or audits relating to the enforcement of this Part, any aircraft, aerodrome or other aviation facility, any premises used for the design, manufacture, distribution, maintenance or installation of aeronautical products or any premises used by the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, regardless of whether or not the inspection or audit relates to that place or to the person who possesses or controls it;
(a.1) remove any document or other thing from the place where the inspection or audit is being carried out for examination or, in the case of a document, copying;
(b) enter any place for the purposes of an investigation of matters concerning aviation safety;
(c) seize anything found in any place referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds will afford evidence with respect to an offence under this Part or the causes or contributing factors pertaining to an investigation referred to in paragraph (b); and
(d) detain any aircraft that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds is unsafe or is likely to be operated in an unsafe manner and take reasonable steps to ensure its continued detention.
The following is a quote from the Aeronautics Act
Powers to enter, seize and detain
8.7 (1) Subject to subsection (4), the Minister may
(a) enter, for the purposes of making inspections or audits relating to the enforcement of this Part, any aircraft, aerodrome or other aviation facility, any premises used for the design, manufacture, distribution, maintenance or installation of aeronautical products or any premises used by the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, regardless of whether or not the inspection or audit relates to that place or to the person who possesses or controls it;
(a.1) remove any document or other thing from the place where the inspection or audit is being carried out for examination or, in the case of a document, copying;
(b) enter any place for the purposes of an investigation of matters concerning aviation safety;
(c) seize anything found in any place referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds will afford evidence with respect to an offence under this Part or the causes or contributing factors pertaining to an investigation referred to in paragraph (b); and
(d) detain any aircraft that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds is unsafe or is likely to be operated in an unsafe manner and take reasonable steps to ensure its continued detention.
The times I have been ramp checked. One good thing I will say about the inspectors. T
they do ask to board the aircraft and are mindfull of any time constrants ref to quick turns and have never held me up even if they have not got to see everything that they could or wanted to see.
One occasion I simply told the chap the paper works up front go nuts I have to work aswell.Once we were set to go I told him in my most plesant maner to get of the plane unless he wanted to go for a ride.
My point is they seem to respect not holding you without cause because they ask you if you mind
Option B you can tell them to get out of they way your working. But you will probably get a call from your ops mang for not being nice to transport 
they do ask to board the aircraft and are mindfull of any time constrants ref to quick turns and have never held me up even if they have not got to see everything that they could or wanted to see.
One occasion I simply told the chap the paper works up front go nuts I have to work aswell.Once we were set to go I told him in my most plesant maner to get of the plane unless he wanted to go for a ride.
My point is they seem to respect not holding you without cause because they ask you if you mind
Option B you can tell them to get out of they way your working. But you will probably get a call from your ops mang for not being nice to transport -
Right Seat Captain
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You might have a fight...whether you win or loose depends on your lawyer...In any case if you try arguing, I hope you have the deep pockets to do it all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, and I hope you would find it's worth it. Some fights are worth it, others just ain't.
Re: Ramp Checks slang for Inspection
If you had a ramp check you feel was unfair, and you decided to fight it, you would likely be challenging the authority of the Minister (or his/her agent) with respect to sections (b) or (d).A Regulator wrote:The following is a quote from the Aeronautics Act
Powers to enter, seize and detain
8.7 (1) Subject to subsection (4), the Minister may
(b) enter any place for the purposes of an investigation of matters concerning aviation safety;
(d) detain any aircraft that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds is unsafe or is likely to be operated in an unsafe manner and take reasonable steps to ensure its continued detention.
Most lawmakers and judges will support section (b) and an inspector's right to perform cursory safety insepctions without imposing operational delays. Section (d) gets more difficult because you then are attempting to oppose the inspector on the grounds of what is and what is not "reasonable."
Bear in mind that, in court or before a tribunal, you would be challenging the inspector's rationale for inspecting an aircraft; in the government's eyes, you're questioning their ability to do their job. They don't tend to like this very much as it highlights how inefficient and short-sighted many of them tend to be.
Best way to deal with ramp checks is to grab on to a nearby railing, squeeze hard, bend the knees a bit and take it like an incarcerated man. It'll be over before you know it.
Last edited by Johnny on Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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The chances of you comming out a winner against the government is just slightly below zero.
When ramped I would advise you to produce the documents required by law and refuse to discuss anything with them period.
If they try and detain you and you have committed no offense you are in a sort of difficult position, if you get into an argument you will lose.
It is a very difficult position to be in if you are ramped by an inspector that is on a power trip.
So unless you can afford to lose big time I guess you should just do your best to get rid of them without causing yourself big problems.
For CID :
Your quote:
Why are we even talking about this? If you want to fight ramp checks, chances are you have something to hide. Open door policy is always best.
So in your mind we are all lawbreakers because just because we may feel that some TC Inspector is using bully tactics without due cause?
It is exactly that mindset that makes it difficult for those of us who are law abiding citizens to go about our daily business unmolested by the police state mentality.
Personally I find your comment to be offensive to the extreem, just who do you think you are to judge people you know nothing about?
Cat
When ramped I would advise you to produce the documents required by law and refuse to discuss anything with them period.
If they try and detain you and you have committed no offense you are in a sort of difficult position, if you get into an argument you will lose.
It is a very difficult position to be in if you are ramped by an inspector that is on a power trip.
So unless you can afford to lose big time I guess you should just do your best to get rid of them without causing yourself big problems.
For CID :
Your quote:
Why are we even talking about this? If you want to fight ramp checks, chances are you have something to hide. Open door policy is always best.
So in your mind we are all lawbreakers because just because we may feel that some TC Inspector is using bully tactics without due cause?
It is exactly that mindset that makes it difficult for those of us who are law abiding citizens to go about our daily business unmolested by the police state mentality.
Personally I find your comment to be offensive to the extreem, just who do you think you are to judge people you know nothing about?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
