Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

[eliteair]

mostly harmless: your post does have merit but there is one major difference beween the Best / Most talented executive and the Best / Most Talented pilot. The executive will not sell his services for a discounted rate, pilots on the otherhand, unless they somehow become united, will continue to do so.

Well said. You also can't complain about executive raises and bonus, then turn around and complain about bad management. Which top executive is going to take a pay cut and stay at WestJet? How are you going to recruit top executives to make the so called "good management" decisions without proper industry standard compensation. Ask WestJet how their search for an Encore president is going. Nevertheless, I agree that Pilots in Canada need to be united with or without a union and set industry pay standards across the board and not allow anyone to work at discounted rates.

[Mach1]

You also can't complain about executive raises and bonus, then turn around and complain about bad management. Which top executive is going to take a pay cut and stay at WestJet? How are you going to recruit top executives to make the so called "good management" decisions without proper industry standard compensation. Ask WestJet how their search for an Encore president is going. Nevertheless, I agree that Pilots in Canada need to be united with or without a union and set industry pay standards across the board and not allow anyone to work at discounted rates.

I didn't see anyone say anything of the sort but maybe I'm missing something. Which top executive? The leader should lead... I think his initials are GS. Perhaps you don't have a problem with people stuffing their pockets at your expense (IE: I give you a pay cut, show how much money I saved the company and collect a bonus that would match or exceed the amount paid to the people who actually serve the customers)... but I do. And just to be really clear on this, the issue isn't with them getting paid, it's with them getting paid by what they can take away from me. This is not just a WJ problem nor an airline problem, it's a problem throughout the corporate world where executive pay was 30 times that of the average worker once upon a time but it is now 600 times that of the average employee. As a starting point, WJ should source a few executives from their own ranks. A lot of smart people there... they don't need to hire an American every time to run the place. It's a Canadian wide inferiority complex. History shows in-house raised CEO's outperform the hired gun from outside the company because they understand the culture. You know culture.. the one that had a tide raising all boats so that when the company did well, the management made money, the employees made money and everyone benefited from success, and suffered the failures. A culture that is gone as certain people on the boat have helicopters now.

So, how much greed is enough? Why should I feel guilty about my greed when I have never seen and executive say no to a massive bonus, pay raise or golden parachute? Didn't Clive used to tell everyone he was going to turn them into greedy capitalists? He should be proud of his success.

[Maurice]

This is a so full of BS. You can argue the company side till your face turns blue but pilot's wages are so miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Even one of WJ's previous EVP's was on record stating so. As it stands right now, WJ gets some of the cheapest pilots and by far the most productive. Put the salaries up and they still have the most productive. I have been told from a few on the inside that WJ's penalties in LGW cancellations/delays are in the mark of 5 million thanks to some quality 767s. There alone can give one heck of a lot of raises to the WB pilots. I won't even mention the amount of money that is wasted in other departments. So when I hear that pilot's salaries will break an airline it's hard not to shoot starbucks out my nose.

If pilot wages were minuscule they wouldn't be able to impact the bottom line, unfortunately because of the sheer number of pilots and the fact they are generally among the highest paid employees in an airline that is simply not true. Note the analyst changes in earnings predictions after the Delta pilots contract announcement - nearly 40% reduction in Q4 and about a 10% reduction for 2017. That's not nothing. It can mean the difference between making money and losing money on some routes.

Deutsche Bank - Equity Research - North America
Delta Air Lines, Inc. Alert - Adjusting forecast to reflect new pilot agreement
02 December 2016

Delta Air Lines, Inc. {Ticker: DAL.N, Closing Price: 47.77 USD, Target Price: 58.00 USD, Recommendation: Buy}
We are lowering our Dec Q 2016, FY 2016, and FY 2017 EPS estimates to incorporate higher costs associated with Delta’s new pilot contract (higher wage rates for one month plus retroactive pay in 2016 and 11 months of higher wage rates in 2017). We are reducing our Dec Q 2016 EPS from $1.22 to $0.75 (vs. consensus of $1.04) and consequently our FY 2016 EPS estimate from $5.70 to $5.25 (vs. consensus of $5.55). We are also lowering our 2017 EPS estimate from $5.60 to $5.00 (vs. consensus of $5.28). Underlying our 2016 and 2017 forecasts are operating margins of 16.3% (+20 bps y-o-y) and 15.5%, respectively. While we are reducing our forecast due to the pilot contract, we are encouraged by management commentary that more positive revenue trends have continued (e.g. stabilization of close-in domestic yields and unit revenue growth in Latin America) and that excluding the pilot contract, management expected the company to produce a margin at the high end of original guidance for Dec Q (i.e. 14% - 16% vs. revised 9.5% - 10.5%).

[Realitychex]

This is a so full of BS. You can argue the company side till your face turns blue but pilot's wages are so miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Even one of WJ's previous EVP's was on record stating so. As it stands right now, WJ gets some of the cheapest pilots and by far the most productive. Put the salaries up and they still have the most productive. I have been told from a few on the inside that WJ's penalties in LGW cancellations/delays are in the mark of 5 million thanks to some quality 767s. There alone can give one heck of a lot of raises to the WB pilots. I won't even mention the amount of money that is wasted in other departments. So when I hear that pilot's salaries will break an airline it's hard not to shoot starbucks out my nose.

If pilot wages were minuscule they wouldn't be able to impact the bottom line, unfortunately because of the sheer number of pilots and the fact they are generally among the highest paid employees in an airline that is simply not true. Note the analyst changes in earnings predictions after the Delta pilots contract announcement - nearly 40% reduction in Q4 and about a 10% reduction for 2017. That's not nothing. It can mean the difference between making money and losing money on some routes.
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I know a senior Delta training Captain quite well.

He'll happily take the money, but he knows that the increase will all but eliminate profit sharing in future years, (for all employees), and probably make it far harder for Delta to be able to deal with the inevitable cyclical turns in the industry down the road.

Unions eat their young. When push comes to shove, they'll always protect the largest shop, and lest anyone forget, WJ will never be the largest shop in town.

Deutsche Bank - Equity Research - North America
Delta Air Lines, Inc. Alert - Adjusting forecast to reflect new pilot agreement
02 December 2016

Delta Air Lines, Inc. {Ticker: DAL.N, Closing Price: 47.77 USD, Target Price: 58.00 USD, Recommendation: Buy}
We are lowering our Dec Q 2016, FY 2016, and FY 2017 EPS estimates to incorporate higher costs associated with Delta’s new pilot contract (higher wage rates for one month plus retroactive pay in 2016 and 11 months of higher wage rates in 2017). We are reducing our Dec Q 2016 EPS from $1.22 to $0.75 (vs. consensus of $1.04) and consequently our FY 2016 EPS estimate from $5.70 to $5.25 (vs. consensus of $5.55). We are also lowering our 2017 EPS estimate from $5.60 to $5.00 (vs. consensus of $5.28). Underlying our 2016 and 2017 forecasts are operating margins of 16.3% (+20 bps y-o-y) and 15.5%, respectively. While we are reducing our forecast due to the pilot contract, we are encouraged by management commentary that more positive revenue trends have continued (e.g. stabilization of close-in domestic yields and unit revenue growth in Latin America) and that excluding the pilot contract, management expected the company to produce a margin at the high end of original guidance for Dec Q (i.e. 14% - 16% vs. revised 9.5% - 10.5%).

[Zoo till Two]

Maurice,

Of course pilots' wages take away from "the bottom line." Every penny spent takes away from the bottom line. That's why it's the bottom or last line on a financial statement. Pilots are professionals that are required for an airplane to move. It should not be a miniscule subtraction. They can negotiate whatever they want. IMO whoever has that little blue book in their pocket has a right to negotiate their $ value. No one else

[Longtimer]

WestJet pilots union drive takes flight again

After an failed attempt in 2015, WestJet's pilots are trying again to form a union

Wed Dec 07, 2016 - CBC News

The Air Line Pilots Association has formalized its drive to unionize pilots at WestJet.

After months of laying the groundwork, the U.S.-based international union said in a letter to pilots that it is collecting membership cards, and warns about a pushback from the Calgary-based airline.

The laws for forming a union in Canada are shifting. Currently, certifying a union in a federally regulated industry, such as an airline, is a two-step process:
40 per cent of employees in the bargaining unit must sign a card.
A secret ballot is held.
It's the same process the WestJet Professional Pilots Association (WPPA) went though in the summer of 2015 as it tried to form an in-house union. However, the vote saw 55 per cent of the airline's roughly 1,300 pilots turn it down. The WPPA then threw its support behind the international ALPA.

However, Bill C-4, which would remove the secret ballot requirement from the process and simply require 50 per cent plus 1 of the bargaining unit members to sign a card, is through third reading and being considered in the Senate.

How much support the ALPA has isn't clear. There are more than 100 WestJet pilots on the union's organizing committee, and in the letter to pilots, the ALPA said they have come together in "great numbers" to support the drive. Over the next week, it has set up collection points for pilots to drop off their cards in WestJet's base cities of Calgary, Vancouver and Toronto.

WestJet flight attendants are also running a union drive, with a deadline of Nov. 3 to collect enough cards to trigger a vote. According to its Facebook page, it will be processing the applications that it has received through December.

The ALPA represents pilots at 31 airlines in Canada and the U.S., including Jazz, Air Transat and Canadian North.

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[crazyaviator]

Pilots are professionals that are required for an airplane to move. It should not be a miniscule subtraction.

AND what are the ACA'd engineers doing when they are signing off your plane ? They should be making equivalent to the pilot up front ,,,,,, That would be $100.00/Hr. NOT the $35-40 that is paid now. When pilots are on the picket lines demanding parity with AMEs I will sit up and take notice. Pilots make MANY mistakes and there are 2 of them up front ( remember Asiana in SFO ? should they be paid $200.000/Yr ? ) Executives are no different than political scum like the Clintons, they will rob a penny from an old lady in a wheelchair, if that furthers THEIR cause! Are pilots any different???

[fish4life]

AME's also are home every night... don't underestimate how much that is worth.

[aerodude]

Pilots are professionals that are required for an airplane to move. It should not be a miniscule subtraction.

When pilots are on the picket lines demanding parity with AMEs I will sit up and take notice. Pilots make MANY mistakes and there are 2 of them up front ( remember Asiana in SFO ? should they be paid $200.000/Yr ? ) a

Hence why Asian carriers are paying over 300,000k for expat pilots with the right experience from all over the world.

[aerosexual]

Pilots are professionals that are required for an airplane to move. It should not be a miniscule subtraction.

AND what are the ACA'd engineers doing when they are signing off your plane ? They should be making equivalent to the pilot up front ,,,,,, That would be $100.00/Hr. NOT the $35-40 that is paid now. When pilots are on the picket lines demanding parity with AMEs I will sit up and take notice. Pilots make MANY mistakes and there are 2 of them up front ( remember Asiana in SFO ? should they be paid $200.000/Yr ? ) Executives are no different than political scum like the Clintons, they will rob a penny from an old lady in a wheelchair, if that furthers THEIR cause! Are pilots any different???

Ok, how about AME's get paid $100 per hour, but only get paid for the time they are physically working on an airplane. If they are sitting around waiting for an airplane, they don't get paid. If they are sitting in the back of an airplane they get paid half of their hourly rate at best.

I think AME's should be well paid, as they have a lot of responsibility. But instead of attacking pilots and treating them like an old lady in a wheelchair, AME's should be sticking together and fighting their battles to further their profession, rather than to minimize another profession to better their own.

[mbav8r]

I wasn't going to chime in as this has been debated in the past however, you are only worth what you can negotiate and Pilots are the only employee group that can't either be outsourced or trained in a week.
Any group could shut it down temporarily while they are being outsourced but long term without pilots they have to find enough parking for the entire fleet.
Now my AME friends, absolutely your licence means something and should be rewarded, if you think you could get 100/hr fill your boots it wouldn't hurt my feelings but as it was pointed out, a typical day for me will see me paid for half of my time on duty and a regular month I'm paid for 80 hours even though I would work at least 160. Thanks for perpetuating what airline management wants Joe public to think, now those long haul pilots that's a whole different story, far overpaid if you ask me:)-

[amraam]

While we're on the subject of licenses and their worth...what about the value of the license for the Flight Dispatcher back in Headquarters who has co-authority with the Captain in the pointy end? These talented men and women are getting paid a FRACTION of what the flight crew are.

amraam

[Mach1]

I have great respect for the fine work done by all the moving parts that keep an airline in the air and moving. Everyone is a valuable and important part of the puzzle. If you think you are worth more than you are paid, negotiate higher wages.

Here's some thoughts for you though:

How many dispatchers worked loading airplanes on docks, in the cold of winter, unsupported for years in order to get their big break? How many dispatchers deiced their own plane, planned the flight, filed the flight, fuelled their own aircraft, ground moved the aircraft, flew the flight, loaded and unloaded the flight... multiple times a day and alone? How many dispatchers made 20K or less for almost half their career to get to the seat they occupy in an airline? How many hotels a year do you stay in? How many family events and holidays have you spent continents away from your friends and family?

If a dispatcher makes a mistake, does he die in the accident? If an engineer makes a mistake, does he die in the accident?

There is a certain level of remuneration that comes with taking that risk. There is a certain level of remuneration that comes with the sacrifices made early in our career. We have a mandated life span to our career... as far as I know the same is not true for engineers or dispatchers.

I'm not going to say you don't deserve more pay because I think you do. But why are you here disparaging what pilots get paid instead of joining us in the quest for a better standard of living for yourselves? We will stand by your side and say you deserve better. Don't you think you should stand by our side when we ask for better. It's not a competition in which I should have more by taking away from you. I've never seen a single statement by a pilot saying that dispatcher's and engineers should make less.

amraam, crazyaviator; I really don't understand where you are coming from or what your point is. Trolling? Management trying to turn us against each other rather than focusing on improving lives for everyone? Jealousy? I really don't know what you are trying to say. If you are saying that we should make less so you can make more, then you are no better than crab in a bucket. Pulling everyone else down so no one else escapes the bucket. I want to see us all get more out of life. The only thing I am against is someone getting ahead at my expense (IE: Executive cuts your wages and gives himself a bonus for doing so). I don't see any pilot here saying your profession should make less and we get to take what we save on paying you and divvy it up amongst ourselves. Lets move forward together and when the time comes that you guys are wanting better wages and working conditions, I will support you, not oppose you.

[crazyaviator]

amraam, crazyaviator; I really don't understand where you are coming from or what your point is. Trolling? Management trying to turn us against each other rather than focusing on improving lives for everyone? Jealousy? I really don't know what you are trying to say. If you are saying that we should make less so you can make more, then you are no better than crab in a bucket. Pulling everyone else down so no one else escapes the bucket. I want to see us all get more out of life. The only thing I am against is someone getting ahead at my expense (IE: Executive cuts your wages and gives himself a bonus for doing so). I don't see any pilot here saying your profession should make less and we get to take what we save on paying you and divvy it up amongst ourselves. Lets move forward together and when the time comes that you guys are wanting better wages and working conditions, I will support you, not oppose you.



_________________

I agree

[Mach1]

I agree

I hope you get a massive pay raise in the new year.

[plhought]

AME's also are home every night... don't underestimate how much that is worth.

Ha ha ha - because the majority of your engineers don't work nights? Swing by the glass-palace one evening at 2 AM and see who's there. AME's may be able to sleep at home - but not certainly at night

I think the crux of the earlier statements is this - if pilots are argueing to be paid more to operate the 'wide-bodies', should the same premium not apply to those wide-body ACA's? or dispatchers?

But in times like these the labour groups seem to hunker-down individually - when they should be talking to each other more then ever.

[aerosexual]

I think the crux of the earlier statements is this - if pilots are argueing to be paid more to operate the 'wide-bodies', should the same premium not apply to those wide-body ACA's? or dispatchers?

For dispatchers at Air Canada, they are paid quite well. I believe starting pay is around $50,000 give or take, and they top out near six figures, and going into six figures with overtime. This is a typical salary range as one would see as a 705 F/O in Canada. Also, AC dispatchers get premiums for being trained to do ETOPS or Polar flights, just as examples.

I agree though, if you want to further your own profession, learn from others instead of putting them down. Or if things are so much better at another profession, then maybe it's time to consider a career change.

[fish4life]

AME's also are home every night... don't underestimate how much that is worth.

Ha ha ha - because the majority of your engineers don't work nights? Swing by the glass-palace one evening at 2 AM and see who's there. AME's may be able to sleep at home - but not certainly at night

I think the crux of the earlier statements is this - if pilots are argueing to be paid more to operate the 'wide-bodies', should the same premium not apply to those wide-body ACA's? or dispatchers?

But in times like these the labour groups seem to hunker-down individually - when they should be talking to each other more then ever.

I'm aware lots work nights but the ability to be home to fix something/ shovel a driveway / see family on your days on of work because you are home is huge.

[Wammer]

From @TomPodolec .@WestJet's 1,380 pilots vote in favour of long-haul, wide-body, expansion plans. Will look for additional wide-body aircraft/new routes