Get ready for the United States of North America

swede · Post by **swede** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:28 pm

Martin has sold us out, just look at what your paying to fill your vehicle with gas. We produce more oil than we could ever use in Canada, but because of the treasonous nafta accord, which the liberals once promised to tear up, we have been sold out totally to the multi nationals. Canada exists in name only, our sovereinty is gone, except for paper, sad but true. Also, a real winner Martin picked for a Governor General. Another mt kitchen with no credentials, no clout and no credibility - just like her idiot predecessor. I guess if nothing else, the libs are going for consistency.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... icleId=853

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:06 pm

Connie Fogal is a well known activist and leader of the Candian Action Party.

Her job is pretty much to oppose the NAFTA. Although I think she's a bit of a nutbar most of the time, I at least agree that NAFTA is a failure because you can't trust American trade policy. In my opinion we should bow out of NAFTA and work to build alternate markets so we don't rely on the US so much for trade. Yes, its convenient but we will always be at their mercy in any trade policy.

As far as oil prices go, it has little to do with NAFTA. You need to talk to Ralph Kline about that one. Alberta will stick as close to market prices as they can while the cost of oil is high. They would much rather sell at at a high international market price than to knock back to a reasonable price for Canadians.

Alberta and Ralph Klein are looking out for number one. Too bad they forget who financed that whole oil patch development thing.

swede · Post by **swede** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:38 pm

It would be nice to hang ol ralphy boy out to dry and blame him for high gas prices, he's an arrogant schmuck. Needless to say, it makes little sense, that in Venezuela for instance, the cost of gas is pennies compared to what we pay. Why would you say that is, apart from the fact that they are a socialist country, so is Canada under the libs, supposedly. We are both net oil exporters. Why are we paying more at the pump by about 20%, than U.S. consumers? This should not be the case, we are being played for chumps, by our own government. We should be paying $.50/ litre, regardless of world prices. Sadly, we are going down the road of this so called global economy, which is merely a tool for the total allocation of world resources to corporate fascists.

Nightshiftzombie · Post by **Nightshiftzombie** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:30 am

NAFTA does have some blame on the gas price issue. We agreed to a continental energy market which means we aren't allowed to bring back the National Energy Program.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:48 am

F the bloody gas... let's throw Ballard Power some cash and get the feul cell in my Civic! We could get the money from the account that pays to fill the pot holes in Iraq.

Hyde from 'That 70's Show' said it best, "... they got this car, and it runs on WATER, man!"

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:31 am

We should be paying $.50/ litre, regardless of world prices.

Why would PetroCanada sell it to you for 50 cents a litre when

a) they'll get a better price for it on the world market

and b) it's quite apparent that Canadian's will pay over a dollar.

swede · Post by **swede** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:21 am

A) - Petro can go ahead and sell it on the world market for all they can get. That doesnt mean we taxpayers should be getting hosed. B) Obviously we will pay over a $1 - exactly what choice do we have in the matter if the government won't regulate the price? And yes, NAFTA is largely to blame for these prices, hence we have been sold to the highest bidder.

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:16 am

exactly what choice do we have in the matter if the government won't regulate the price?

Capitalism doesn't work that way. Hence we're subject to the forces of supply and demand.

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:23 am

I only buy gas from Pioneer gas stations. They are consistantly cheaper, provide those " bonus bucks " and there are enough of them around that I never have to go searching. If more people did this, the " Fat cats " would be forced to lower their prices....it's been tried before but I still see consumers paying higher prices at an Esso, when there is a Pioneer almost 9 cents cheaper right down the street...sometimes I just don't get our society.

-=0=LIR=0=-

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:42 am

CID wrote:Connie Fogal is a well known activist and leader of the Candian Action Party.

Her job is pretty much to oppose the NAFTA. Although I think she's a bit of a nutbar most of the time, I at least agree that NAFTA is a failure because you can't trust American trade policy. In my opinion we should bow out of NAFTA and work to build alternate markets so we don't rely on the US so much for trade. Yes, its convenient but we will always be at their mercy in any trade policy.

As far as oil prices go, it has little to do with NAFTA. You need to talk to Ralph Kline about that one. Alberta will stick as close to market prices as they can while the cost of oil is high. They would much rather sell at at a high international market price than to knock back to a reasonable price for Canadians.

Alberta and Ralph Klein are looking out for number one. Too bad they forget who financed that whole oil patch development thing.

So Ralph is to blame for high oil prices? Alberta doesn't set the oil prices, the global market does. The Alberta government has little to no influence on the daily trading price of oil.

Who financed the Alberta oil patch? Oh you must be refering to the United States. The U.S was and still is a huge investor in the Western Canadian oilpatch. Good to see you don't see the U.S as an "Evil Empire", and more of a contributor and developer of our country.

Good on ya Cid.

swede · Post by **swede** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:44 am

People could boycott a certain gas company in their city/community. Say Shell for instance. If it were done consistently enough, that supplier would probably be forced to lower their prices, at least for a while. Going about getting the gasoline consumer to boycott would be another effort entirely, it has not worked in the past, that I know of.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:50 am

Calculating gas prices is more complicated then just looking at the price of oil. There are other costs involved in determining the value of the finished product. Look for example at refining capacity. The US can refine far more gasoline and diesel then Canada, there by increasing supply and reducing the cost of the product further in the U.S. Cost of doing buisness in the U.S is cheaper, labour is cheaper, taxes in some parts of the U.S are lower. There are so many factors involved in the equation.

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:03 am

Nightshiftzombie, LIR, and Mellow pilot are the only posters on this thread that have said anything that is in touch with reality up until this point.

I'm shocked at the level of ignorance that is displayed here with regards to the basic functioning of the oil and gas industry. "It is better to stay quiet and appear a fool than to open your mouth and remove any doubt."

A few things that everyone should know before this debate continues.

The National Energy Plan has NOTHING to do with the price of gas at the pump. The NEP is simply a way for the federal government to take a portion of Alberta (and Ontario's) Oil and Gas revenue and distribute it to the other provinces.

The price of gas at the pump is indeed dictated by global supply and demand...or more specifically the market's perception of global supply and demand. Osama Bin Laden hasn't reduced the global oil supply, but he's put a $10 a barrel premium on the price.

If you want to see a lower price at the pump, let's think about how the pricing at the pump is structured. Taxes rolled into the price at the pump form a huge part of your gas dollar. Let's keep in mind that the taxes are a percentage of the price per liter, and not a fixed amount per liter. What that means is that when gas prices go up, the tax revenue goes up, and the constant financial tribulations faced by government chasing after re-election become a little simpler.

Now that we understand why the price of gas is the way it is, what do you think the chances of a government doing something about it are? Exactly zero until their re-election relies upon it.

swede · Post by **swede** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:39 am

The problem is, we have been coopted to believe that we don't or cannot have the refining capability or the manufacturing ability to stand on our own. The BSE crisis that devastated the cattle industry proves that we need processing facilities, just as we need more processing facilities for oil. Canada has been used as a supplier of raw material for too long, people seem to think the status quo is just fine and it is not - it is a recipe for disaster as far as the fiscal health and viability of Canada is concerned. As energy costs continue to rise, inflation trends will move up exponentially. Great for the globalist fascists who are orchestrating, very bad for us. I do not believe for one second that any of this (rising energy price) is happening by chance. Anyway, you can all open up on me now as the conspiracy nutcase, time will tell wont it..

Dex · Post by **Dex** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:43 am

Oil is not priced by a supply/demand model. It is regulated by Cartel.

swede · Post by **swede** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:03 am

Dex wrote:Oil is not priced by a supply/demand model. It is regulated by Cartel.

PRECISELY!

Nightshiftzombie · Post by **Nightshiftzombie** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:53 am

The National Energy Plan has NOTHING to do with the price of gas at the pump. The NEP is simply a way for the federal government to take a portion of Alberta (and Ontario's) Oil and Gas revenue and distribute it to the other provinces.

Sorry I kind of miss spoke. I didn't mean we should bring the NEP specificaly. I just ment to point out that the federal government bargined away it's option of giving us preferential pricing by limiting exports.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:20 pm

an article in the Calgary Sun today (page 15) by the Canadian Taxpayers points out that 33% of a litre of gas is taxes.
The Liberals are even taxing on the taxes!!!

Some of you (Eastern?) MORONS stupidly accuse Ralph Klein of gas prices when the idiot Liberals you keep voting in are the thieves and liars.
They will be returning about 5 billion dollars to Canadians when they are collecting 20 billion.

Alberta has provided low-interest loans to many Provinces courtesy of its oil wealth. It has also contributed billions to the Federal coffers, very little of which finds its way back here either.

Albertans generally contribute to the national wealth and probably most of us would like to ease the financial pain of gas prices. This in spite of the NEP which was nothing better than a legitimized act of theft.

Get your facts straight and then go after the culprits before you waste your time (and mine) whining about the kind of government you voted in.
Martin even says that "Canadians have embraced fully that we now share the gas tax with municipalities."

How many lies do you need?

As for any further Liberal messing with Alberta, forget the title of this post. Certainly, any repeat of the NEP against Alberta will result in its leaving this Federation.

CarbIce · Post by **CarbIce** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:34 pm

NAFTA II?

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/386

Dex · Post by **Dex** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:49 pm

The rising cost of oil will serve the Province of Alberta quite well. Many more reserves will become cost effective to exploit. It might be a good time for Alberta taxpayers to start asking for annual dividend cheques.
http://www.pfd.state.ak.us/

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:05 pm

Dex wrote:Oil is not priced by a supply/demand model. It is regulated by Cartel.

The problem is that with the additional destablization in the middle east and venezuela. The so called "OPEC Cartel" has lost it's influence on the oil price and that is why the price is on the rise. Opec has lost control and there lies our problem.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:09 pm

Dex wrote:Oil is not priced by a supply/demand model. It is regulated by Cartel.

The problem is that with the additional destablization in the middle east and venezuela. The so called "OPEC Cartel" has lost it's influence on the oil price and that is why the price is on the rise. Opec has lost control and there lies our problem.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:40 pm

Oil is not priced solely on cartel whim or supply/demand. As a couple people here have tried to point out, it's a combination of various factors. Supply/demand, Cartel influence, market stability, taxes, labour costs, refining capacity, exploration/development costs, shipping costs, all play a role.

The only reason that it is profitable to tap Alberta's tar sands is because of the high price. Try extracting petroleum from sand at $.50/litre and see how far you get.

If you really want to get steamed over something try this:
Taxes go toward paying for roads so you can drive your car to the pump to get gouged. You're paying so you can pay. Now that's a bitch.

Everyone always bitches no matter who is in power. If you really think you can do better, run for office. Otherwise, sit down and have a beer, everything will get better.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:05 pm

Swede,

Are you suggesting the government should regulate oil price like Jimmy Carter did in the US?

Floats · Post by **Floats** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:31 pm

"gas taxes go for roads"

I wish!!!!!!!!

some tiny amount like 2% gets pumped into roads, most of it goes into other programs, why? cause we keep voting in car hating liberals