What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

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Jean-Pierre
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What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Blanket ban on use? Time from use to flying rule similar to alcohol? How about enforcement? Is TC going to get into the business of drug testing pilot? What do you think will happen? I wonder if they even started working on a plan. Maybe they will even completely ignore it and let operator enforce their own rule.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by cncpc »

Jean-Pierre wrote:Blanket ban on use? Time from use to flying rule similar to alcohol? How about enforcement? Is TC going to get into the business of drug testing pilot? What do you think will happen? I wonder if they even started working on a plan. Maybe they will even completely ignore it and let operator enforce their own rule.
Millions of Canadians, including pilots, have been smoking marijuana for 50 years. It won't be a crime anymore. That's all that has changed. Why would Transport Canada do anything different now, when it hasn't been a problem for 50 years?

A short time ago, I was dealing with an employee with an issue. I came into contact with an area guy in charge of TC Medical for a region, or maybe an area. I asked him what the situation was in terms of pilots who had a prescription for medical marijuana. He said, "We expect pilots to have a clear head when performing their duties."

Is there any pilot on this board who doesn't want to have a clear head when performing his duties?

I doubt that.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by CpnCrunch »

cncpc wrote:
Is there any pilot on this board who doesn't want to have a clear head when performing his duties?

I doubt that.
Sure, but there seem to be quite a few who lack the common sense to avoid being intoxicated while flying even *with* the laws we have for alcohol.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Heliian »

What have regulators done in other jurisdictions?

How do they currently test for impairment from any of the other thousand medications and substances currently available with and without a prescription?

I'm sure that everyone, including TC, will adjust to it without blind panic.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Meatservo »

My only problem with that is that there is a lot of pseudoscience being proliferated about marijuana. One of the falsehoods that are circulating is that being high on marijuana causes less impairment than being drunk. I know how ridiculous this sounds, but I have actually heard quite a few otherwise intelligent people opine that they are quite safe to drive after smoking dope. Some believe it actually makes them safer, if you can believe it. Once I was on a road trip with one of my friends, and he pulled out a joint while he was driving, and smoked it. I thought, OK, I guess this is going to be "this kind" of road trip (I used to be a touring musician, just to give you some context) and proceeded to reach into the back seat and grab a beer. No sooner had I pulled the beer out of the cooler than he hit the brakes, and demanded to know what the hell I thought I was doing. We then got into an argument where I basically told him that if he was going to do the Cheech & Chong thing while I was a passenger in his car, I was going to have a fucking beer. He told me it was waaaay different, man, and how dare I consume an alcoholic beverage in his car, which was not only unsafe but ILLEGAL!!!! Jesus Christ, you can always tell a drummer, but you can't tell him much, you know?

I am not an anti-fun stick-in-the-mud, but I believe that in order for this legalization thing to work, we need to establish standards, like we have for alcohol, that can be used to determine whether or not someone can be considered to be impaired, based on a blood/intoxicant percentage, and a realistic timeframe that correlates amount consumed and elapsed time since the last unit consumed. I think this is the most important thing that needs to be done. Otherwise, people who openly smoke dope will always be viewed with some suspicion in safety-sensitive jobs such as flying.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Jean-Pierre »

The US DoT has banned the use of marijuana by commercial driver so a Canadian driver taking even prescribed medical cannabis may not drive in US road. This is enforced by testing Canadian driver must submit to. Could be something similar for Canadian pilot entering US. Especially if use becomes a big (bigger) part of Canada culture.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by cncpc »

Use already is a major part of Canadian culture, JP.

I expect that marijuana impairment, i.e. while flying when the effects of use are still active, is not unknown in private flying, but less so in commercial work.

I also think being high would be quite noticeable to anyone else in the cockpit, or before the flight. More so than booze.

It is true that on a one off basis, smoking a joint and waiting 12 hours would very likely be a safe practice. The question is not about once offs though, but of heavier use, and the cumulative effects of that.

It's a good thread question, Pierre.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Donald »

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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by altiplano »

yeah more ballshat standards is just what we need, and maybe another flight attendant to babysit the flightdeck.

how's this for a standard? report for work rested and sober for duty. period. bac 0.0.

fckn canada, we are so worried about appearances and defining things...

what has KLM done all these decades?

maybe TC can focus on things that matter like getting our flight duty and fatigue rules up to the same levels of the Bangladeshis... or heaven forbid we reach for the stars and get to easa or faa standards.

there's the problem. because guaranteed EVERY DAY there are canadian pilots in the sky fckn sh!t bagged tired who may as well have drank a six pack and taken a bong hit or four. Guys are asleep at the wheel. for real. every day. and we are worried about the few who smoke a J out fishing, or on the weekend...

start a thread about what Transport will do about the real issues and problems facing pilots because this is basically irrelevant.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by mato »

The issue with cannabis vs alcohol is you can't test for the level of intoxication. Since you can't test like a breathalyzer, the only way to really control the pilots is to ban and possibly drug test. That only shows that you have taken the drug at some point in the window of time it remains in your system.

So some work needs to be done to really study and understand the effects to the level we understand alcohol, and find a way to measure imparment. Then maybe all will be good in the hood.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Grey_Wolf »

Alcohol or Drugs — Crew Members

602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft

(a) within eight hours after consuming an alcoholic beverage;

(b) while under the influence of alcohol; or

(c) while using any drug that impairs the person’s faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by pdw »

Is TC going to get into the habit of drug testing the pilot?
NTSB checks it for the accident reports with fatality (found a few in the 208 accident database/ for ~ 150 accidents read). TSB would do the same.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by valleyboy »

It's what the pilots will finally have to do. More pissing in the bottle for sure and likely like the USA it will morph into random ramp checks. Sometimes legal has some unpopular push backs for the majority just to police the minority - life goes on !!!!!
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Jean-Pierre »

FAA does random drug testing during ramp check?
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by all_ramped_up »

One problem with a Piss Test is the unfortunate fact that Marijuana lingers long in your system due to its solubility in fat cells unlike other intoxicants (Cocaine, Heroin, MDMA etc) so while you may not be impaired, there will be detectable THC in your piss/blood for potentially a week or longer after smoking a cannon. If someone is a recreational responsible user (Say they have one or two in the evening or an enjoyable Kingston-esque Weekend) they could be falsely flagged up to nearly a month after.

What they need to develop is a test that can determine short-term exposure. Like if they can tell if you've consumed within say eight to ten hours before a flight like Alcohol.

Having done my share of experimentation when I was younger... I can tell you that I have yet to meet a joint that had me impaired more than two hours.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by cncpc »

Grey_Wolf wrote:
(c) while using any drug that impairs the person’s faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way.
For obvious reasons, that doesn't work for marijuana. Who determines what faculties, what extent? Should your faculties be impaired at all, not only to the extent that safety is endangered. If your faculties are impaired, isn't safety always endangered?
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by North Shore »

all_ramped_up wrote:One problem with a Piss Test is the unfortunate fact that Marijuana lingers long in your system due to its solubility in fat cells unlike other intoxicants (Cocaine, Heroin, MDMA etc) so while you may not be impaired, there will be detectable THC in your piss/blood for potentially a week or longer after smoking a cannon. If someone is a recreational responsible user (Say they have one or two in the evening or an enjoyable Kingston-esque Weekend) they could be falsely flagged up to nearly a month after.
So don't fcuking use then! It's not that difficult is it? My position on the is pretty much the same as Altiplano's : Show up clean, sober, and non-fatigued [subject to scheduling buggery.]. If Mj is going to show up in your blood a month after ingestion, and cause you problems, then don't put it in there in the first place. :rolleyes:
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Cat Driver »

If Mj is going to show up in your blood a month after ingestion, and cause you problems, then don't put it in there in the first place. :rolleyes:
That is using logic.

Aviation is full of people that can not understand something that simple.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by fish4life »

The biggest problem is that dependant on what the MJ is laced with someone doesn't know how strong / what they are taking. It would be like drinking a beer only to realize when your done that it's a 40% alcohol beer when you thought it was 5%. Until they can get some sort of scientific proof and certified MJ that has a definitive timeline of being impared it has to be zero tolerance.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by SuperchargedRS »

don't fly under the influence of anything.

Pot aint special, and its about time the government quit fighting a war against the people and a plant
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by loopy »

My understanding is that there a couple of Canadian companies working on roadside test technology. Earlier this year some police organizations were testing some roadside tests developed overseas. I think it's premature to legalize a drug until it's decided what constitutes impairment and there is a means to check for it. I'm sure there are more people driving high on something than drunk these days.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/drug-sc ... -1.3770883
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... ed-drivers
http://news.stanford.edu/2016/09/08/pot ... ana-tests/
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/20 ... _soon.html
http://www.inc.com/will-yakowicz/houndl ... lyzer.html
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by all_ramped_up »

North Shore wrote:So don't fcuking use then! It's not that difficult is it? My position on the is pretty much the same as Altiplano's : Show up clean, sober, and non-fatigued [subject to scheduling buggery.]. If Mj is going to show up in your blood a month after ingestion, and cause you problems, then don't put it in there in the first place. :rolleyes:
It's easy to show up in proper clean, sober non-fatigued fashion and still enjoy the odd toke.

However why should someone be penalized if their responsible off-duty indulgence of Marijuana doesn't affect their work? Showing up clean, sober and ready to fly only to get dinged because a week ago they were in a left-handed circle with some buddies at the Cottage? Hardly seems fair when you've got individuals that are hard on the booze and pushing their 8-12h bottle-to-throttle limits on the regular.

It'll only show up for up to a month in extreme cases. If your last name is Marley or you're going through a couple ounces a month for example...

There's a lot of ill-gotten stigma attached to Marijuana especially amongst folks older than 40.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Grey_Wolf »

Alcohol or Drugs — Crew Members

602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft

(a) within eight hours after consuming an alcoholic beverage;

(b) while under the influence of alcohol; or

(c) while using any drug that impairs the person’s faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way.

For obvious reasons, that doesn't work for marijuana. Who determines what faculties, what extent? Should your faculties be impaired at all, not only to the extent that safety is endangered. If your faculties are impaired, isn't safety always endangered?
TC has left this section vague so that the law can interpret it accordingly during an investigation/trial.

Why subject yourself to a dissection of your character after an incident/accident, because you choose to smoke pot? or drink alcohol?

You're in the travel industry with a responsibility to the public and their safety. There a certain code of ethics that is expected of you as a pilot!

Would you let a doctor operate on you after they were high? What about a lawyer fighting your case? Daycare taking care of your kids? Firefighter? Police Officer? Ambulance driver? Nurse? etc ...
Hardly seems fair when you've got individuals that are hard on the booze and pushing their 8-12h bottle-to-throttle limits on the regular.
If this is the case, shut it down! Impaired is impaired; whether it's alcohol or pot.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by North Shore »

all_ramped_up wrote:
North Shore wrote:So don't fcuking use then! It's not that difficult is it? My position on the is pretty much the same as Altiplano's : Show up clean, sober, and non-fatigued [subject to scheduling buggery.]. If Mj is going to show up in your blood a month after ingestion, and cause you problems, then don't put it in there in the first place. :rolleyes:
It's easy to show up in proper clean, sober non-fatigued fashion and still enjoy the odd toke.

However why should someone be penalized if their responsible off-duty indulgence of Marijuana doesn't affect their work? Showing up clean, sober and ready to fly only to get dinged because a week ago they were in a left-handed circle with some buddies at the Cottage? Hardly seems fair when you've got individuals that are hard on the booze and pushing their 8-12h bottle-to-throttle limits on the regular.

It'll only show up for up to a month in extreme cases. If your last name is Marley or you're going through a couple ounces a month for example...

There's a lot of ill-gotten stigma attached to Marijuana especially amongst folks older than 40.
Well, I'll cop to being over 40! :lol:
I have no argument that you can enjoy the odd toke, and show up fit to go; I'll even go so far as to allow you to ingest any illicit substances - as long as when the call comes, you're clean. And that was my point - if you can't guarantee cleanliness, then perhaps think twice about what you're ingesting.
I'd like to think that our occupation breeds and rewards pretty conservative decision-making; this issue should be an example of that.
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Re: What is Transport Canada going to do about the upcoming legalization of marijuana?

Post by Old fella »

"There's a lot of ill-gotten stigma attached to Marijuana especially amongst folks older than 40. "

No stigma attached to this old fool whose heyday was late 60's and early 70's Ramp man. Still have fond memories in my University days blowing good weed and hash while "Days of Future Past", the ole Moodys album spinning on my Dual turntable, Fisher amp and Dynaco speakers. fast forward to the mid/late 70's budworm spray in NB, the TBM tokers, maint boys and us, 172 pointer pilots. I know airline pilots, lawyers, teachers, medical people(nurses, lab techs), heard cops did as well but they were not my kind of company those years, not now either. Everybody blew weed, even Reverend Boscoballs was in on it, he liked looking at our girlfriends. I went to the Eagles concert few yrs back that was in YQM, outdoor park rain and mud...... and a good toke, Woodstock 1969 anyone...... most here are way to young to know that. Guess what, I am still alive. :weedman: :weedman:

On the job, that was a big NO............
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Last edited by Old fella on Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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