Bearskin FO Pay

[Spirit]

Anyone know what's the pay like for First Officers at Bearskin? There was a post that mentioned $29,600 per year, just wondering if that's accurate.

Thanks!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Things are moving kids. You don't need to put 10 large up front for jobs anymore. Don't.
Illya

[Spirit]

well I came to seek an answer but received some good advice instead

Thanks!

[Maynard]

Things are moving kids. You don't need to put 10 large up front for jobs anymore. Don't.
Illya

100% FO turnover from Jan 2015 to Jan 2016. That's over 20 'kids'. You know as well as I do, no one this day and age knows that "give you my word" actually means "give you my word". However I do agree, you don't need to put up 10K. But if you you have any decent time, upgrade will be in a year or less....

[goingnowherefast]

From the rumours I've heard, it's a pretty miserable working environment for the first couple years. Union contract is very top heavy and screws the "young". Management mentality is to not even try and retain new hires. Nobody is expecting them to stay, just a "when you leave, this is the financial contract".

Unfortunately I don't know any actual numbers to answer the original question.

[Maynard]

From the rumours I've heard, it's a pretty miserable working environment for the first couple years. Union contract is very top heavy and screws the "young". Management mentality is to not even try and retain new hires. Nobody is expecting them to stay, just a "when you leave, this is the financial contract".

Unfortunately I don't know any actual numbers to answer the original question.

If you don't have numbers, then please, do tell how we are screwing over the "young". Oh you've been here 6 months, well please take 15,000k from my salary. Here I'll give you some of my days off too. You know what, take my wife. You've earned it. Also how is it a miserable work environment for a couple years? Does it magically get better? Funny story, every pilot, 25 years in or 1 month in, works in the same environment under the same conditions. Why do you continuously post when you don't have a clue??

[goingnowherefast]

If you don't have numbers, then please, do tell how we are screwing over the "young".

You find out by talking to their pilots and asking "How's things at Bearskin?" If multiple pilots go on the same rant about top heavy union contracts and the high seniority guys getting all the perks, then it starts to build a picture.

Oh you've been here 6 months, well please take 15,000k from my salary. Here I'll give you some of my days off too. You know what, take my wife. You've earned it. Also how is it a miserable work environment for a couple years? Does it magically get better? Funny story, every pilot, 25 years in or 1 month in, works in the same environment under the same conditions.

Again, Seniority. Top 5 guys bid their 6 weeks vacation over the whole year, bid all the good schedules, etc. Leaves the September vacation slots to go on holidays with your school age kids. Overnighting on weekends when your wife is off work. 10 year captains get a fat paycheck, 1st year FOs are bonded to their poverty salary. Also, last I heard it was a 10k bond, not "15,000k".

Why do you continuously post when you don't have a clue??

Actually that is my first post in this thread. I was actually expecting more helpful responses from others but with the lack thereof, I offered what little I know.

[Maynard]

Page 2 of this forum has the other bearskin thread where you expressed your opinions as well. So how many people of the 50 here have you talked to? 2,3, 15?? The 15k wasn't a reference to the bond, just a number which I should donate to the young since they apparently live in poverty.

[goingnowherefast]

Lets cut the crap and be productive. Do you know the answer for Mr. Spirit who asked the pay question above?

[Maynard]

Page 2, bearskin thread. It's a 5 year contract. Nothing's changed

[Jean-Pierre]

$29k/year and you have to give them $10k up front. Stay clear. It's an old boy club that turned a metro position that should probably never be a career position into one.

[Ex99guy]

Why waste your time with a $#!t company like Bearskin? Shoot straight to the regionals. With the amount of movement happening there, there is no need for you to subsidize training at Bearskin with an upfront bond. Save your parents the money and go straight for Encore, Jazz or Sky.

For the record, in this day and age a couple hundred hours on a metro won't advance your career that much. As much as it pains me to say this, if you're desperate to burn money spend the 10 G's on an instructor rating. At least you'll have something to show for it, like a fancy new sticker for your ADB.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Things are moving kids. You don't need to put 10 large up front for jobs anymore. Don't.
Illya

100% FO turnover from Jan 2015 to Jan 2016. That's over 20 'kids'. You know as well as I do, no one this day and age knows that "give you my word" actually means "give you my word". However I do agree, you don't need to put up 10K. But if you you have any decent time, upgrade will be in a year or less....

It's gone beyond "I give you my word.." and you know t. It's the industry. Plain and simple. The days of enslvement in a Metro are coming to a much needed end. Trying to tie pilots to a bond when they can go fly a Q is just not going to work anymore. It's now (and it always has been) the cost of doing business.
Illya

[sstaurus]

It's true there are a lot of lifers there, which is why a lot of people don't stick around very long. But to say that's because the company sucks is just ignorant. It's still a great place for experience and has top notch maintenance. The contract has great work rules, but any seniority system favours the old timers.

I think they'd do themselves a favour by changing to a promissory note for training, but then they'd be chasing down pilot after pilot as they all take off after 3 months. That bond doesn't even cover the cost of training an initial. What can you do when every pilot is salivating over shiny airliners at the moment...

[Spirit]

It's true there are a lot of lifers there, which is why a lot of people don't stick around very long. But to say that's because the company sucks is just ignorant. It's still a great place for experience and has top notch maintenance. The contract has great work rules, but any seniority system favours the old timers.

I think they'd do themselves a favour by changing to a promissory note for training, but then they'd be chasing down pilot after pilot as they all take off after 3 months. That bond doesn't even cover the cost of training an initial. What can you do when every pilot is salivating over shiny airliners at the moment...

I would work there if they didn't ask me for money AND if they paid properly. $29K a year is not a lot more than minimum wage.

[flyinhigh]

For the record, in this day and age a couple hundred hours on a metro won't advance your career that much. As much as it pains me to say this, if you're desperate to burn money spend the 10 G's on an instructor rating. At least you'll have something to show for it, like a fancy new sticker for your ADB.

Ok, so flying a twin engine, pressurized aircraft all over the province in crap weather is not worth as much as being VFR in a circuit pattern. WTF.

Actual flight experience is worth WAY more than spinning a light Cessna everyday.

FYI, This does not mean in any way, shape, or form that I endorse Bearskin from their bond practice. It's appalling what they do there.

[goingnowherefast]

Things are moving kids. You don't need to put 10 large up front for jobs anymore. Don't.
Illya

100% FO turnover from Jan 2015 to Jan 2016. That's over 20 'kids'. You know as well as I do, no one this day and age knows that "give you my word" actually means "give you my word". However I do agree, you don't need to put up 10K. But if you you have any decent time, upgrade will be in a year or less....

It's gone beyond "I give you my word.." and you know t. It's the industry. Plain and simple. The days of enslvement in a Metro are coming to a much needed end. Trying to tie pilots to a bond when they can go fly a Q is just not going to work anymore. It's now (and it always has been) the cost of doing business.
Illya

Was there ever a "give you my word"? Bonds seem to be a mutual understanding that people likely won't be staying the duration with a specified financial agreement. Like buying out of a cell phone contract, if you will. If they actually wanted FO retention, the WAWCON would be better.

[Maynard]

$29k/year and you have to give them $10k up front. Stay clear. It's an old boy club that turned a metro position that should probably never be a career position into one.

Really?? Like a Dash 8-100 is a career position?? Give me a break. A new FO at Jazz makes 37,000/yr, that's 8k more than JV. Compare expenses in YYZ vs YQT. Maybe you should keep your arrogant, ignorant ass in PQ. C'est l'hopital qui se moque de la charité.

[Maynard]

100% FO turnover from Jan 2015 to Jan 2016. That's over 20 'kids'. You know as well as I do, no one this day and age knows that "give you my word" actually means "give you my word". However I do agree, you don't need to put up 10K. But if you you have any decent time, upgrade will be in a year or less....

It's gone beyond "I give you my word.." and you know t. It's the industry. Plain and simple. The days of enslvement in a Metro are coming to a much needed end. Trying to tie pilots to a bond when they can go fly a Q is just not going to work anymore. It's now (and it always has been) the cost of doing business.
Illya

Was there ever a "give you my word"? Bonds seem to be a mutual understanding that people likely won't be staying the duration with a specified financial agreement. Like buying out of a cell phone contract, if you will. If they actually wanted FO retention, the WAWCON would be better.

NO THEY WOULDN'T!! People just don't get it. You could offer every FO 15 days off and 80k starting salary. Guess what, they will still go back to Southern Ontario to fly a shiny Q400 because its a step to the 787 at AC. Its all about the end goal. Flying a 747 for 10,000$ a year will still beat flying a metro for 100,000$ a year. I asked it in the last thread, show me a 704 operator who has better WAWCON than Bearskin. Crickets. Please, show me, put me in my place.

[goingnowherefast]

Pretty much every 704, except for maybe EVAS. I'm unsure on GGN, but they do pay better. Even in your backyard at Bearskin, Wasaya pays 704 FOs 8 grand more, and they are home every night. Plus no more up front bond there. I've heard good things about Pasco and CMA too.

[FOD_Vacuum]

It's gone beyond "I give you my word.." and you know t. It's the industry. Plain and simple. The days of enslvement in a Metro are coming to a much needed end. Trying to tie pilots to a bond when they can go fly a Q is just not going to work anymore. It's now (and it always has been) the cost of doing business.
Illya

Was there ever a "give you my word"? Bonds seem to be a mutual understanding that people likely won't be staying the duration with a specified financial agreement. Like buying out of a cell phone contract, if you will. If they actually wanted FO retention, the WAWCON would be better.

NO THEY WOULDN'T!! People just don't get it. You could offer every FO 15 days off and 80k starting salary. Guess what, they will still go back to Southern Ontario to fly a shiny Q400 because its a step to the 787 at AC. Its all about the end goal. Flying a 747 for 10,000$ a year will still beat flying a metro for 100,000$ a year. I asked it in the last thread, show me a 704 operator who has better WAWCON than Bearskin. Crickets. Please, show me, put me in my place.

I'm sorry, but 10k a year to fly a 747 does not beat 100k flying a metro. What you youngsters just entering the first three years as paid commercial pilots don't realize is that the pilot life will quickly revolve around building that dream lifestyle. I hate to say it but it usually means making lots of cash with minimal days working and being with your family and friends, but still doing what you love to do: fly! THAT DOESNT MEAN JUMPING TO THE AIRLINES ASAP.

I'm six years in flying in the 703/704 (no bond) world and I would not change one thing. I make 60k plus per diems so like 70k and am home 340 ish days a year and only work half a month every month. I pay low rent and saving tons of cash and chill in the North. Not everyone's dream is to fly for AC and get paid like 35-40k to start and pay ridiculous amounts of rent in a place in YYZ, YYC or YVR for a place you barely get to enjoy because you are always commuting or working away from home. Not to mention that crash pads and time away from the wife and kids etc can build stress overall. That sounds way too stressful and not a life as a pilot I would imagine.

I do think that the Bearskin FO pay is horrible, so if you and your future lifestyle doesn't fit your possible income as a Bearskin FO then stay away and do not apply because after taxes, you bring in maybe like 900$ a paycheck...wtf ? If you do your research, build connections etc and look for 604, 703-704 niche operators, you will find that there are career places that pay decent with a good wage unlike the airlines.

Take a step back and evaluate what you want in life-its short, so choose wisely.

[Jean-Pierre]

Please do not insult my heritage Maynard because I do not insult you. $8k is 27% more than 29k. Big difference. If you think Thunder Bay is cheap go fill up your truck with gas and tell me what is the bill?

[Maynard]

101.9 in Thunder Bay. 99.6 in Toronto. 2$ difference if you fill up a 98l truck. Now how far will that tank get you in YYZ. Longest commute in TBay city is 10-12 minutes. How about working at Pearson??

Pretty much every 704, except for maybe EVAS. I'm unsure on GGN, but they do pay better. Even in your backyard at Bearskin, Wasaya pays 704 FOs 8 grand more, and they are home every night. Plus no more up front bond there. I've heard good things about Pasco and CMA too.

Pretty much every 704?? Yet still no numbers to back anything up. I guess you know every single 704 WAWCON??
How many days does wasaya get off? Do they fly 14+ legs to shitholes? What are their benefits? Per diems? Travel benefits? No bond but they still do a note.

And why would management want FO retention? There's maybe 2 here that qualify to go left seat. If 5 captains left tomorrow, they'd be screwed. The FO will always be a revolving door. Even if we paid 40k plus per diems, which would probably be above every other right seat gig, they would still leave within a year.

[JayVee]

[quote=
Again, Seniority. Top 5 guys bid their 6 weeks vacation over the whole year, bid all the good schedules, etc. Leaves the September vacation slots to go on holidays with your school age kids. Overnighting on weekends when your wife is off work. 10 year captains get a fat paycheck, 1st year FOs are bonded to their poverty salary. Also, last I heard it was a 10k bond, not "15,000k".[/quote]

That's how seniority works. That's how it worked when I started. The difference now is that the millennials want it all and they want it now. They want what they haven't earned because they believe they're entitled to take from those who have. They want the benefits of seniority without having seniority. Juniority. They want their participation trophy just for showing up.

[goingnowherefast]

Pretty much every 704, except for maybe EVAS. I'm unsure on GGN, but they do pay better. Even in your backyard at Bearskin, Wasaya pays 704 FOs 8 grand more, and they are home every night. Plus no more up front bond there. I've heard good things about Pasco and CMA too.

Pretty much every 704?? Yet still no numbers to back anything up. I guess you know every single 704 WAWCON??
How many days does wasaya get off? Do they fly 14+ legs to shitholes? What are their benefits? Per diems? Travel benefits? No bond but they still do a note.

And why would management want FO retention? There's maybe 2 here that qualify to go left seat. If 5 captains left tomorrow, they'd be screwed. The FO will always be a revolving door. Even if we paid 40k plus per diems, which would probably be above every other right seat gig, they would still leave within a year.

It's a Bearskin thread, if you want to know the WAWCON at the other companies, try the search function.

Let's make an example here. You work for company X, make 30 grand and just got engaged. Your current job has slow progression and you are worried about getting time off for your wedding, then the eventual supporting your family, useful days off, etc. Now company Y comes along and offers you 25% more money to start, and you can realistically expect to break 60 grand after 2 years, once the kids arrive. Plus the movement is much quicker and you'll be able bid enough time off for the wedding.

Why does management want FO retention? Well you answered that yourself. "If 5 captains left tomorrow, they'd be screwed"

Job market is a free market, workers go to the highest bidder. It has nothing to do with entitlement.